----------
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:53:21 -0600
From: Richard Hills rhills@nmsu.edu
Subject: Re: [D90] Vibrations
> Joe Young wrote:
> I got a little vibration when letting off the gas at cruising speeds
> (not springs) and it does not matter if the clutch is in or out. It is
> coming from the rear half and I can't tell if it is the shaft, x-case or
> diff, but is part of the rear driveline. Anyone think it could be the
> backlash of the R&P and need adjusting after a few thousand miles since
> the install of the ARB? Again, it does not do it if throttle is applied
> and the clutch does not effect it on way or the other.
Mine did it too. I noticed it going down steep hills at highway speeds
after I added a little more lift (1.5 to 2"). When I took away the lift,
the clashing went away. Sounded like the R&P were backlashing. I figured
it was due to the harmonic excitation generated by the steep angle
(about 12 degrees) of the u-joint at the transfer case. I replaced the
u-joints and it went away - for about 2 weeks. I also noticed that the
new u-joints at the transfer case were loose after only a month. After
that, I replaced the rear drive shaft with a cv unit and it has been
fine since.
Rich
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From: Ben Bibb[SMTP:ben@whiterover.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 1:10 PM
Subject: [D90] Drive Lline Noises Gone
We finally had the answer to our very annoying rear drive line noises
dropped on our heads.
I decided, with minor prompting from mother earth, that a variable length
lower rear link would make the noise problem better or perhaps worse.
Keith at Fabritron was kind enough to humor me with a pair of 25 mm shorter
rear lower links. His new link can provide about 25 mm of length extension
or reduction in 1.5 mm steps. Way too much range! 9 mm shorter than the
stock arm and all our noise was gone! ! ! What a dramatic change.
Our D90 now drives and rides like the stock truck we once loved to drive.
Well it IS a bit tipsy without any AS bars but the stiff OME's help provide
a reasonably stable ride.
Mod details are on our web site. http://www.whiterover.com
Still waiting for the BL wheels from MRT. Guess we will put the 36's on
GCR wheels..
Ben and Pat Bibb
'99 Disco Series II "Salty"
'97 D90 "Sly"
'91 Rangie "Tweet"
----------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:32:25 -0700
From: "Rick Larson" rlarson@vineyard.mti.sgi.com
Subject: Re: [D90] castor kit and vibration
Drive shaft due to larger than spec'd U-Joint angles has a very different
physics than a drive shaft balance/tire balance problem. See:
http://4wd.sofcom.com/A.hints/Universal.html
Have to be a bit careful. Just tilting up the pinon on a stock drive
shaft is unlikely to fix the problem. It might. But if so it is
really an accidental fix. One of those it works because it works
things. You are likey to still experience rapid u-joint wear.
Tilting the pinon up is generally necessary with a CV jointed
drive shaft. This is because of the way a CV jointed
drive shaft works. The two U-Joints of the CV cancel each others
momentum vectors. There are no vectors to cancel the 3rd joint
at the pinons momentum. Thus it should experience as little angle
as possible.
Given the $600-$800 cost of new drive shafts,
I do agree that one might want to check tire balance as a problem
if you aren't sure you are experiencing driveshaft vibration.
That check is free. Rotate the tires f/r and see if the problem moves.
Also can remove one driveshaft. If the vibration goes away it is
the likely culprit. Anyway, definitely try the cheap things first.
New U-Joints, tire balance, etc. But it is faily easy to cause
U-Joint angle induced vibration in a lifted D90. The rear drive
shaft is very short and even a moderate lift can greatly increase
drive shaft angles.
- -Rick
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From: Bill Ritchie[SMTP:billnsandi@kingwoodcable.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:06 PM
Subject: [D90] Recent Carnage (long)
On a recent trip out to Columbus, Tx to prepare a trail for a Land Rover
Houston sponsored outing, I was leading a pack of Rovers (several Discos,
and Defenders) down the highway going about 80 mph or so. I had just
commented on the CB about how I needed to replace the driveshafts with CV
jointed driveshafts (because of some driveline vibration that had surfaced
since increasing my lift height to about 3"), when I heard a loud BAMMMM
(+ various other ominous sounding metal grinding noises and thump). The
engine revved and I immediatly shut down and pulled over on the shoulder.
A quick look under the truck confirmed what I had suspected - The Rover
Gods have spoken - Thou shalt not lift the Rover more than 2" without
paying homage to the CV jointed driveshafts. The rear ujoint of the front
driveshaft had grenaded and the shaft had jumped up above the bar support
for the transmission and ground itself into the bottom of the passenger
seat box (just below the ecu). A thick stream of ATF was flowing out of
the side of the transmission, so things were not peachy. Further inspection
revealed that the shaft had smashed into the side of the transmission and
took a chunk out of the pan gasket, and unfortunately had also cracked the
bottom portion of the transmission housing where it abuts the pan.
I pulled the front shaft and Doug Aitken was kind enough to flat tow me to
a nearby truckstop. We then went about our buisness and helped with the
trail clearing during the morning. Afterwards Alan and Mimi Dobbs took me
back to Houston where we picked up the Super Dooper Behemouth Dodge Tow
Truck and Alan's flat bed trailer and went back to rescue my D90. After
buggering my steel winch cable once again pulling it up on the trailer
(Amsteel blue line ready for installation thank God) we ran the truck back
into Houston.
A new rover shop aptly named the Rover Shoppe had recently opened here in
Houston and Alan gave one of the owners "Doc" a call to see if he would
open up to let us drop off the truck. He was more than glad to assist and
drove in the 30 miles from his home to the shop on Sunday to open up and
let us deposit the D90 (what a great guy, and buisness).
I went back today to drop off the SG 3 link upgraded crossmember (since
they had the old one off for diagnosis of the tranny problem), and it looks
like the tranny has to come out and be welded along a crack on the bottom
edge. Oh well - could have been worse. I could have been half way to Las
Cruses or Moab when it happened. Maybe I should rethink my stategy of
replacing failed components with upgrades, and start getting proactive.
Moral of the story - if your driveline vibrates or makes noise, pay
attention to the ujoints and driveshaft angles - it may save you a few bucks.
Bill Ritchie
'97 D90 AA Yellow ST #2078
-------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:06:19 -0800
From: "Charles Morris" sublime1@jps.net
Subject: RE: [D90] U-joint replacement (reply)
> I need some tips on replacing U-joints (rear at this time). I've done
> them before on other vehicles using the socket and hammer method, but
> that doesn't seem to work on the LR. The manual is pathetic by
> suggesting you tap the yoke and it should fall out. I pushed the U-joint
> thru one way and removed that cap, but getting the opposite cap back
> thru is not working. Both caps must be removed before the spider will
> come out.
>
> And how about getting them back in?
(I'm sure you know most of this, but I'll throw out most of what I know)
The Rover U-joints are like any other. I actually use non-rover U-joints now. $12 for the small ones, $22 for the big ones. "Precision" I believe.
They install and remove the same as all other U-joints. The socket and hammer method is correct, dont be shy about beating them out, they can be stubborn. A vise or orhter clamping too is a good idea. I had to actually use a screwdriver once to break apart a bearing cap on one because it just would not move once I pushed out the opposite cap. The caps are very brittle and will break apart suprisingly easy.
As far as reinstallation goes, have the joint inside before you place the first cap on. Dont forget to check that all of the bearings are still in there. Tap it into place *just* to the point where the retaining ring will fit. Then install the other cap. Tap it into place *only* far enough to get the retainer in. A tough thing to fix is when installing U-Joints is when one over-compresses the U-joint in between the two bearing caps. Its a bear to get centered after this happens. If you do this, you will have to beat(softly, usually) the side of opposite side of the propshaft to loosen it.
The installed U-joint should move quite freely.
This are some of my experiences with U-joints. They are only worth what ya pay for them ;-)
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:17:05 -0500
From: daitken@sugar-land.anadrill.slb.com (Douglas Aitken)
Subject: Re: [D90] ujoints part numbers
At 07:57 PM 4/9/99 -0500, Bill wrote:
>Thanks for the help on the driveline problems I have been having. I will
>replace the U-joints tomorrow before pulling the 3rd member.
>Does anyone know the part number and manufacturer for a replacement ujoints
>(not the LR replacement please). Thanks
Checking back through my archive of list correspondence (thanks James
Pierce and Charles Morris), the consensus is:
"The front are Precision part no. 369, the factory part no. is RTC 4587 and
they sell for $103.93 ea. at your local dealer. You can purchase 369s from
any parts store, because they are used in many chev. applications, for
around $9.00.
The rear are 344s, the factory part no. is RTC 3458 and sell for $74.44 ea. at the dealer. You can get these at the parts house for approx. $20.00."
Doug
'95 Red Defender 90 5-speed
'95 Aspen Silver Range Rover 4.0
Alan E. Foster[SMTP:alan.foster@vt.edu] adds:
Subject: RE: [D90] U-Joints
Front: Spicer 5-4X
Rear: Spicer 5-153X
Also, the rear heavy duty UJ from Precision is 280
-Alan
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From: Chris "V"[SMTP:t.velardi@snet.net]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 7:58 AM
Subject: [D90] U joints
Last time I put in new U joints (after one fell apart) I went to a heavy
duty U joint that had a longer zerk fitting . We'll greasing it a week ago
with a new grease tip the fitting refused to release and the zerk fitting
broke off . SOB! Decided to do some research on the different U joints now
available with some surprising results. First the Heavy duty "life time" U
joints are BS. They don't drill for a zerk fitting so they consider them
stronger, But unless you dissemble them to re-grease they will not last (now
who in there right mind is going to Take apart their drive shafts every
3,000 miles just to re-grease? Then there are the un-drilled super strength
"needle" grease fittings that are placed in the end caps. This is a step
above the "No grease" version but to get the proper amount of grease through
the needle fitting (with a special needle grease gun tip) to fill all four U
joint journals is close to impossible. (especially with all that mud and
grease under Rovers) It turns out a standard design is best (when maintained
properly) but look for a thick walled U joint with a higher number of very
fine roller bearings and a standard short zerk fitting (Timken design).
Another key to remember is before installation of a new U joint is to remove
all caps and fit the zerk fitting, then fill with grease. If the caps are
left on , or fitted before filling with grease , one of the journals will
get all the air trapped in it and the other will fill with grease and before
you get a few miles on the rig the U joint will wear unevenly and eventual
become toast. Another thing I like to do is after installing the U joint in
the yoke (heavy hammer and solid bar or socket technique) and securing the
clips in place is tapping back (with restrained force) the U joint caps
against the clips to free up some space and movement. (a ball joint removal
fork works well to keep even pressure against both sides of the U joint arms
and gives a solid place to hit) With out doing this it is very hard to gauge
if you have over pressed the U joint to either side of the yoke and may run
unbalanced. PS as quoted from Barnett "grease all the zerk fittings on the
rig every time you do an oil change {3,000 or so}" or be prepared for field
fixes .
Chris "V"
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From: Alan Ottley[SMTP:alan_ottley@3com.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] GBR CV PropShaft Installation
> I got my new front propshaft from GBR and it looks great. I'm about
> to put it in and just want to verify where the CV end goes. At the
> diff, or up at the transfer case?
Jason,
The CV goes up at the xfer case side. Have fun!
A.
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From: Jeff Gauvin[SMTP:jeff.gauvin@lsil.com]
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 10:43 AM
Subject: [D90] Q-tip: Rear Pinion Angle Correction
After installing a double carden ("CV") driveshaft it
may be necessary to rotate the rear pinion upwards to
zero out the propshaft/pinion angle. Shortening the
lower links is the normal method, but there is an
easier and cheaper (free, actually) option if you only
need a small correction: move the triangle shaped bushing
mount from the rear of the frame "ear" to the front of
the ear. This effectively moves the frame mount for the
trailing arm forward by almost 0.5" and tilts the pinion
up in the process, and does so without shorting the link!
For me this correction combined with my already 0.25"
shorter RW arms was perfect. I checked the pinion/shaft
angle and it was less than 1-degree.
I think this idea can be taken a little further with
additional spacers between the bushing plate and frame
ear, but I wouldn't get too crazy.
Time: under and hour to do both sides.
Cost: free, zero, nada
Special Tools: 24mm wrench for trailing arm / axle
mounts, 30mm or 1 3/16" for the bushing end.
Idea courtesy of Matt at Rock Ware.
Jeff Gauvin
'94 D90
-----------
From: Eric Dube dube@zk3.dec.com
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:03:57 -0400
Subject: Re: [D90] D90 Driveshafts....
> I recently installed a stage III suspension from Safari Gard on my D90.
>I am experiencing some minor driveline vibrations, but my bigger concern is
>pulling the front one apart under extreme articulation off-road. I was
>wondering if some of you running this set-up could share your set-up's with
>me.
I just went through this driveshaft problem recently. The first place I checked was Six States Distributors. From what I hear they do really good work, and their prices are reasonable (my quote was $380 per driveshaft (including adapter plates & shipping.)) However, they didn't get back to right away, so I ended up buying them from British Bulldog (SG reseller - no longer in business.)
Honestly, the SG driveshafts seem pretty overkill for the Rover setup. As Rick said, too heavy-duty. (The four bolts on each end seem way inadequate for the lines!) They are really nice and since I've installed them, they have cleared up all the driveshaft vibrations I was experiencing.
I did have one problem though. The grease nipple on the front driveshaft sticks out way too far. A couple days ago I was going around the corner and the nipple was grinding against the cat. I tried to tighten it some more, but it's already pretty tight and I'm afraid to snap it off. I need call SG and ask Greg about this.
From what I've heard as long as you get the lengths right it really doesn't matter which shop you go with as most of the driveline shops use the same Spicer-Dana components.
Good luck.
Regards,
Eric Dube
-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:52:12 -0700
From: "Rick Larson" rlarson@vineyard.mti.sgi.com
Subject: Driveshaft sources (was Re: [D90] Vibrations)
Safari Gard
www.safarigard.com
South Bay Drivelines in San Jose, CA (mine came from here)
Steve Johnson
573 W. Julian St.
408-995-6000
Six States Drive Distributors
http://www.gowheels.com/sixstates/ (good general driveshaft info here)
All of the above use the transfer case adaptor plate method. Think they
are all using the same Dana-Spicer components but I haven't looked that
closely.
If my memory is working, the CV used was originally spec'd on Ford Broncos.
They are much stronger than the stock shafts. Only real issue people have
had
is the grease fitting. You want a flat/needle one as opposed to the
standard
nipple. Since the shafts are oversized the standard nipple can scrape on
Catalytic converters. How big a problem this is seems to vary from D90 to
D90. For extreme lifts (3" +) you will need to tilt you rear pumpkin up.
Greg (SG) makes a part that extends the upper A-arm a bit.
It has been awhile. But plan on about $300-$400 per driveshaft and
say 30-45 minutes to install.
- -Rick
----------
From: Shane Ballensky[SMTP:roverme@sunset.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] Driveshaft Source Questions
Bill
I got my driveshafts from Tom Woods front and rear with CV-joint. The
price was $385.00(5/24/99) each with the custom adapter flange. The
driveshafts and adapters are perfect. I also like that when I called to
place my order Tom was the person that I talked too and I assume the person
that actually made the shafts.
Shane
94d90#1316
----------
From: Gomes, David
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: [D90] Front Prop Shaft
"....the sliding member on my front propeller (drive) shaft no
longer slides...."
If you remove the u-joint at that end, you should find a rubber plug in the
end of the sliding member. If you pry this rubber plug out, you can
probably pour some penetrant in there to loosen things up, and then use a
brass drift through that hole to free up the splined part. I'd try and
recover it before paying for a new one.
Come to think of it, that rubber plug might be missing on yours already,
that possibly being what let the nasties in that bound it up in the first
place. The plug is there to let excess grease escape if you grease it with
the shaft extended, and then compress it. If somebody greased that joint up
good with the truck on a rack, wheels dangling, they could have put enough
in there to pop the plug the first time you compressed the front suspension
real good and fast.
If stuff like WD 40 doesn't work to free the spline. Try Coca Cola. I'm
serious, great rust-eater. Frees stuck motors with bound up rings a treat.
-Dave G.