-------------
From: "Chris \"V\"" tchris@freewwweb.com
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:27:44 -0400
Subject: [D90] air presure
Every now and then you spend enough time in one spot (the exact same spot) to analyze the effect of tire pressure on traction . The first of such trials was in Vermont on a steep snowy incline where every technique I could think of was ineffective in it's accent. So as a last ditch attempt I started to air down . First I used the 30 psi road pressure then I went to 20 then to 15 (with each air down taking 10 to 15 min. in the freezing cold) to no avail not with momentum not at a crawl. then I went down to 10 psi and walked up as if I put a new set of tires on!
Again this weekend in a completely different scenario I had a chance to retry the pressure game . On Friday night on a trail I had never seen before I wanted to pre- run "Dangerous" or the Extreme trail for the Hell and Back Event for the West CT Land Rover Club. Well it was already 6 p.m. before I got to the site (way to close to dark for a new extreme run) and I left my tires at road pressure (being lazy) We'll I had a very difficult time at it. Actualy had to winch my self off one spot . I was alone except for spotters (something else I don't like to practice) but the non of the other trail guides were or would do the run . If an emergency had arisen there vehicles were close enough to do a serious recovery. Well I bounced on rocks and over boulders and slid up water falls, with out the control I normally look for in a trail. Well the next morning I would head back in with 5 more rigs and show them how to do it or really how not to do it , knowing I had to make some serious changes to get everyone through safely.
The first step was to air down properly. this time I went down to 12 psi
from the start (a good large bolder # for my BFG 35 -12.5's) Night and day
performance difference! on every spot I had problems the night before I
walked over now . Allowing the tires to conform to the large jagged boulders
gave the rig the ability to crawl instead of bounce.
Sunday the finale day of the event I went down to 10 lbs. This got me high
centered all over the place . Going down that low took away the height
advantage of the 35" tires and left me catching the ears of the front and
rear trailing arms mounts! (who in Gods name designed these !? [ no big
boulders in England?) Well after a few hours of gouging and bashing my
frame and every thing else that's unprotected , I took out the nitrogen hose
and aired back up to 12 psi and watched the rig rise up! Now the I was able
to grip the slippery rocks and boulders and clear their peaks.
So a word from those who have suffered so you don't have to ...don't be lazy
always select the appropriate air pressure before you start the run and if
you find the pressure you selected getting you into problems change it don't
keep pushing on and chance major damage.
Chris "V"
------------------------
From: Chris Velardi[SMTP:tchris@freewwweb.com]
Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 8:31 AM
Subject: [D90] Snow
Snow is a different beast, Different temperatures and different types of snow (yes there are different types) require different tires , different psi, etc etc. I have use both the BFG AT and MT in just about every snow / ice situation you could get yourself into. The AT (when new) are good for hard-pack snow or medium to light snow coverage. and fair on ice (better if siped , the newer they are the better because of the sharp vertical edges that are able to cut and grip the snow as it gets packed{this is true of all tires} after the edges wear the tire loses it's ability to grip snow and ice.
On an older Range Rover I had with BFG AT's with about 30,000 miles on them I was stuck in my drive way (800' long and a winding steep incline) in a really good snow storm I lost forward mobility about half way up. (snow was up to the hood) Well my invincible rig had found it's match.;-( After a few hours of digging and special technique maneuvers I had the rig headed back down to the local tire store (No dam snow storm was going to beat me ;-} had a set of new BFG M/T's put on drove back home and drove up the previously compacted embankment like it was nothing! Been sold on the M/T's ever sense . But on really hard pack or ice the A/T's have an advantage.
If you get muds make sure you get them siped or ice driving will be miserable. Airing down in fresh new deep snow is also important . You have to float in the deep stuff not try and dig to the bottom (this is where a wide tire is better than a narrow one. On a moist snow covered hill in VT I did an impromptu test on air pressure and the M/T's.. (OK I couldn't do the hill! It was so dam steep and slippery, until I reached the right psi. I went from 25 to 20 to 18 to 15 to 12 ...Bingo hit 12 and the rig made it up. (this was like a 45 min ordeal in 20 degree cold , I tried every gear/speed/ traction technique I could think of only the right psi would make it happen.
Chains would also make it work but NFG on pavement, and studs are good for ice but again horrible on bare or wet pavement Some times being the first guy on the trail braking the new path in fresh snow is the easiest (usually dry, soft moderate depths snow falls) other times it is easier to be farther back in the pack (deep, wet snow) where the lead drive does all the work and the others wonder why he is advancing so slowly ;-\ I don't think you'll find a tire that is perfect for for every snow condition but there are some really good "snow " tires out there, whether they are good enough for off road deep snow driving I don't know but with tire there is always some trade off.
Chris "V"
----------
From: Jamie Austin[SMTP:jamie.austin@austingroup.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [D90] What list is this? :-)
> So, after off-roading in the Pine Barrens the other day. My left front
> tire was flat after two days. I checked it for punctures and couldn't
> find any. I was running my SuperSwamper TSL Radials (33") at about
> 15psi on the trail. When I checked the tire, I did notice that some air
> was leaking around the wheel. Could some sand have gotten into the bead
> causing air to leak out there?
It used to happen to me when i ran tubeless BFG's. when you drive through a rut, mud gets compacted and forced through the gap 'tween the tyre and rim. if you were to take the tyre off of your rim, you'de see a layer of packed mud there. easily removed with a screwdriver.
I always use tubes now, regardless if the tyre will run tubeless. check for rough bits and stickers on the inside of the tyre though, these will wear through a tube in no time.
Jamie
'96 Tdi D110
'92 V8i D90
'85 Tdi D90
----------
From: kneelohm@aol.com[SMTP:kneelohm@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] Mudders
Steven:
I was looking for something a little narrower and more agressive than the
Yokohama Geolander (285/75) and decided to try the 265/85 Buckshots. I only
have about a thousand miles on them (compared to about 15k on the
Geolander)so far but here are my first impressions.
1)They are a hell of a lot quieter on road then the Yokos. This was a big
surprise. Can't tell wear yet but I am a bit displeased in the wear of the
Yokohamas.
2)Wet mud/sand (NJ Pine Barrens) they like to dig. A little too much. You
really need to air down to around 12psi. The Geolanders with the extra width
allowed you to hammer down on the throttleand float a bit more.
3)Snow. I had a chance to play in the 1 1/2 feet of new snow in VT this
weekend and have to say they were great. Much more control than the Geos
which like to slide around a lot, especially on a light coating of snow.
I have to say i do so far prefer them over the Yokohama's, which I'd say is
say a lot since I also really like the Geos.
I purchased them from OK Tire and 4WD in NJ for $138 per tire (including
mount and balance) which is about the same as you'll pay for the Geolander.
You'll also gain about a half inch under the diff in comparison.
Neil
94 D90 #1092
97 Disco
----------
From: Alan E. Foster[SMTP:alan.foster@vt.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] tires
The Buckshots are alright, kinda squishy, but that's why they do pretty well in VA clay and on rock. Without sway bars, the truck is like a 30 ft yacht with a tiller ... better not need to make any quick changes in course! Overall, a good tire, although they do wear quickly. They were what I was running when I got hit by the drunk driver, and although I was making 70 and he was > 100, and I had no rear anti-sway bar, the truck stayed on its feet, and I wonder if the side-wall flex helped with that. Off-road, they do extremely well, with very flexy lugs and are pretty good at cleaning themselves.
----------
From: Alan E. Foster[SMTP:alan.foster@vt.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:39 AM
Subject: RE: [D90] Mudders
In answer to the questions posted ... I do like the (Buckshot) tire, it does pretty
well in the goop and grime of VA; I run the 265/85 on the 16x6.5 rim. The
lugs are extremely soft, and they therefore are very helpful on the trail,
but also wear very fast ... my tires are wearing faster than my room-mate's
SS TSLs. Would I get them again? That I still don't know; there's nothing
wrong with the tire in my opinion, they're a bit squishy and potentially
scary on the highway, but I get used to the "yacht feeling" of my truck. I
do run BFGs as a "road set", but have taken the Buckshots out onto the
Interstate, and they have done fairly well, though not nearly as
predictable as the BFGs. (this is to be expected from a squishier tire) I
do love the size, but hate the wear (starting to look like 10000 miles
would be a miracle out of them; then again, I won't run a tire after it's
lost too much tread to be of much use off-road).
I got mine from Tires Int'l ... http://www.tyres1.com They had the best
price I could find; also check out Nat'l Tire http://www.natltire.com
They have an indispensable chart on their page that gives the actual
dimensions of the tires they carry; however, the rim sizes they quote are
sometimes not necessarily the best or only choices.
The only thing I really dislike about the Buckshots is that I feel that for
as fast as they wear, and as squishy as they are on the highway, that they
could have a more aggresive tread; they have their fair share of deep lugs,
but no protruding external lugs, no large strangely shaped lugs ... I guess
I'm still hoping SS makes their 34x9.50x16 in a radial!
-Alan
----------
From: childress, barnett[SMTP:childress_barnett@emc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 8:27 AM
Subject: RE: [D90] Mudders
I've been running 36" Buckshot's on D110 steel 16x6.5" wheels for about a
year now. I like the performance off road but my 90 is also still my daily
driver and sees 75 miles a day on highway. With highway use wear doesn't
seem to be to bad. And with the big tires aired up to 35PSI they're not to
bad on road. Except for a bit of shimmy and shake that no amount of
balancing can seem to get rid of. The smaller Buckshot's don't seem to have
this problem.
However IMO these tires are way to wide to be used on road in snow...unless
you keep your speeds low. For a better all around tire I think the 33-34"
range is better. I had great results running the BFG 255/85R16 MT's.
If a 35-36" tire is a must, then possibly something tall but SKINNY like the
Michelin ZXL's would be a better all around performer. I've heard that
although expensive, the Michelins balance out and handle/ride very well on
road at speed. Both the Michelins and the Buckshot's will wear faster than
the BFG's. To bad BFG doesn't offer a MT in a tall skinny tire like the
Michelin.
Anyway, after running both sizes on and off road in a variety of different
conditions (mud/snow/ice/rock/etc) I've come to the conclusion that for me
if I only run one set of tires and stick with a 36", my next set will be
tall and SKINNY.
If I can't find anything I like or can afford :> (Michelin XZL's are
EXPENSIVE!!!). I might go back to a 34" tire after these wear out. This
will give me good overall performance on and off road, and I'll gain enough
clearance to use tire chains if I want (or need to) use them.
The larger tires do get you a bit of extra clearance and better overall
approach, departure and break over angles. But I don't see a "huge"
advantage over running a slightly smaller aggressive tire in the 34" range.
Just my opinion.
Barnett
----------------
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:52:20 +0100
From: jimallen@onlinecol.com (Jim Allen)
Subject: Re: [D90] Dunlop tires
I have 36K on my Dunlop Mud Rovers (12.50x35-15) and still have at least
55% tread left. No cupping noted, but then I am fairly anal about rotating
them (about 7.5K miles or every other oil change). Some tearing and
chunking of the tread noted from sharp rocks at low pressures. but not
excessive. The vehicle they are used on weighs in at nearly 6000#, so the
wear is pretty fantastic. I have also had BFG MTs, which did not wear quite
so well, but a set of BFG ATs on a pickup have held up extremely well (35K
so far). The Mud Rovers work well everywhere except ice. No sidewall
punctures as yet, even on runs where other tires had them in abundance
(anecdotal observation). I find them very sticky on rocks, great in mud,
OK-good in sand, good on the street (fairly quiet), good in deep snow and
poor on icy roads (what do you expect from a mudder?). Rain performance was
fair until I had them siped, then improved radically to at least good. Ice
performance improved from the sipe job but not quite out of the poor-fair
category. They are chunking some from the sipeing, but not excessively.
Jim Allen
-------------
From: Craig Reece [craigreece@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] Shafts and gears
> Shane,
>
> What's the difference between the radial Swampers and the bias-ply
Swampers?
My theory is that yes the bias ply swampers are stiffer but also thicker
therefore giving more protection against cuts. This stiffer tire enables
the Tire Co to make the tires with a softer tread compound and deeper tread
without loosing "too much" stablity on road; therefore giving better off
road traction. The down fall of bias is also this stiffness the keeps the
tire from forming to the terrain. To overcome the stiffness extremely low
air pressures [less than 5psi] are needed for optimum traction.........hence the need
for beadlocks.
The swamper radials are an excellent rock tire since they use simular
features of the bias-ply swamper with a more flexible sidewall. This comes
at the cost of less durable sidewalls. The new swamper tire the SSR(which
is what I have) have a thicker sidewall approx. half way up the sidewall for
more durablity yet with the radial design for better flex at reasonable
pressures(I run 10-12psi).
Or for the true swamper tech go to:
http://intercotire.com/
Shane
----------
From: Bill Ritchie[SMTP:billnsandi@kingwoodcable.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 2:51 PM
Subject: [D90] Super Swamper SSR 35x14.5x15" Road Report
I installed the big 35x14.5x15" SSR's about a month ago now. They are mounted on 15x10" Marsh Racing Black Steel 36 bolt beadlock wheels with 4" backspacing. With that backspacing they don't even come close to the radius arms at full lock (I would probably change to 4.5" given the chance).
I had Alan Dobbs lift all corners with his forklift and noted any fender flare and body panel contact. It was of course extensive. I finally just took off the fender flares completely, and I still rub the front and rear edge of the aluminum front fenders when turned and stuffed. Also had to have the ends cut off my DR sliders because they rubbed the tires really hard when turned in front. I still have some metal trimming to do, but will wait until I reach final ride height and articulation (after installing SG 3-link and springs).
Road manners for the SSR's are great. They are very, very quiet for such a big aggressive tire. They track straight, and even without balancing have a pretty wobble free ride. The sidewalls are considerably thicker than my last meats (Goodyear MT's) so the ride is somewhat stiffer.
The SSR's are great offroad - I have only one offroad outing on them so far but it was impressive. Mostly muddy and sandy terrain. They really ate it up. I did some mud-bogging that I could have never done with the old tires. The D90 feels more stable now with this increase in track width. Especially in off-camber positions.
As Doug was stating, the D90 looks very wide now. I am trying to decide if I like the way it looks without fender flares (still up in the air).
Airing down the SSR's is standard fare. Slight sidewall bulge at 10 psi, big bulge at 6-8 psi, and they completely flatten out at 0 psi (for those of you thinking that they are stiff enough to run without the valve stem in place). They take alot of air to fill up - and it takes a long time even with the CO2 tank.
More reports and picts to follow, here is a taste -
http://www.defender-90.com/spring.htm
Bill Ritchie
----------
From: Doug Boehme[SMTP:DBoehme@PA.Navisys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 12:13 PM
Subject: [D90] Super Swampers TSL/Radial road report
I have the 265/80r16 Super Swamper TSL/Radials and have run them in the
following conditions:
2 weeks on local roads
17 hours of highway driving (Philadelphia, PA to Vermont and back again)
challenging off-road conditions in VT containing snow/ice/frozen dirt/brush
With all that, I don't have a single complaint!!! Well, just one, at about 65mph the steering wheel starts to jiggle back and forth. Probably just an alignment issue. They performed flawlessly and got me out of many situations while off-roading that my previous BFG/ATs wouldn't have (obviously!) I highly recommend them.
The tire wear doesn't seem bad either - they seem to be harder than the Buckshot Mudders which I was going to get before getting the TSLs.
Douglas J. Boehme
----------
From: Richard Hills[SMTP:rhills@nmsu.edu]
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] Do I really want 36" tires?
CT,
Unless you do extreme rock crawling, the increase in off-road
performance over 255/85's is very little. On-road performance decreases
because your track increases, affecting your steering geometry, which
decreases straight line stability. This can be compensated for by more
caster (and more $).
Last year, I went from Dunlops 255/85s on stock rims to TSL 35x12.50s
SSRs and 15" rims. The biggest change I noticed was attributed to the
wider track associated with the wider rims with less backspacing. The
vehicle was more stable and it gained about 80 pts on the ramp (again,
mostly due to the wider track). The wider track also helps keep the side
of the body away from the big rocks. The other difference was the
increased traction on rock. However, I believe this is mostly due to the
much softer/sticker rubber compound used in the SSRs compared (this was
the only reason I moved to the SSR's) to the Dunlops and not due to the
increase in diameter. There are some minor changes in clearance under
the diffs, but the increased clearance has not affect the lines I take.
For me, the change was worth it only because I am a hard core rock
crawler with access to some of the toughest trails at my back door. A 5%
increase in off-road performance is worth it to me. I like the tires
sticking out of the fenders to help protect the body. I like that extra
bit of stickiness of the SSR's on rock faces. I don't like the loss of
stability on the highway (for those 500 mile days) or the extra mud that
now kicks up on the vehicle. I run 4:11s and find that they are not low
enough off road or on road for the Las Cruces area.
If you do hard core rock crawling with lockers front and rear, you will
need lower gears, stronger axles, and about a 2.5" lift with some minor
fender trimming (mostly to the rubber flares).
By the way, I have wheeled with D90's and Jeeps on 36x12.50's swampers.
In my opinion, they do not perform as well as the TSL 35x12.50 SSR's.
Just my 2 cents
Rich Hills
Rich later added:
I have also wheeled with a group from Colorado (not sure where in Co)
here in Las Cruces, one of which runs on 12.50 SSR's and one of which
runs on 14.50s in nearly identical Jeeps. Since they wheel together a
lot, I asked the owner of the 14.50's if he noticed an improvement in
traction over his friends 12.50's. His answer was that both provide the
same traction. I also noticed this when Bill was down here from Houston
with his D90 on his 14.50 SSR's
----------
From: Richard Hills[SMTP:rhills@nmsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [D90] Boggers
Before buying my SSR's, I called the engineer at TSL and visited with him about
the differences between the various tires. He stated that the boggers use a
harder rubber compound. This makes the rubber less sticky than that used in the
swampers. In addition, the boggers are a conventional ply construction which
makes the tire less pliable to the terrain.
Never the less, boggers are popular with some of the local hard core boys
because big block tread combined with its stiffness does grab small sharp edges
on some of our big falls. In addition, the boggers and the conventional ply
swampers are indestructible (none of these guys even carry spares on our local
runs). In contrast, we are always loosing radials due to the sharp rock.
However, even some of the more ardent supporters of boggers in our club are
considering going to radial swampers because on smooth rock, boggers are at a
big disadvantage. In addition, they are not lateral stable as Q noted, due to
their tread design.
I don't know how puncture resistant the new GYs are to our sharp rocks. My SSRs
seem a little better than my Dunlops and significantly better than BFGs around
Las Cruces. If the new GYs are as strong as the SSRs, as quiet on the highway,
and as sticky, then it would be a hard choice between the new GYs and the SSRs.
The old GYs' were terrible for in Las Cruces. The one guy who ran them destroyed
a tire just about every time he went out. He quickly moved to another tire.
Rich
----------
From: childress, barnett[SMTP:childress_barnett@emc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 7:16 AM
Subject: RE: [D90] XZL's
Picked up the 90 late yesterday afternoon and my first impressions of the
XZL's are very positive. They are VERY well made and balanced with about ½
the weight or less, than the 36x11.9 Buckshot's. I love the look of these
tires! :>. They just seem "right" on my 90. I'm not a real fan of wide tires
for what we mostly wheel in, here in New England anyhow.
The drive home and this morning on the highway was great. The 90 "almost"
drives like I was running my old 255/85 BFG MT's. I had the XZL's mounted to
the same LR D110 steel wheels.
I am getting a tiny bit of rubbing on the flares going around corners at any
speed. The XZL's are 36x10.5" so I was surprised to hear the rubbing, but
they seem a wee bit taller and more square shouldered, with bigger outside
lugs. I'll have to ramp up on my favorite backyard boulder and see where I
need to do a bit more trimming. Can't wait to try them off road. Hopefully
this weekend.
Only negative's I can think of at this point, (besides the price), are the
tires weigh a whopping 95lbs! That extra weight has got to be a factor on
the amount of strain to the drivetrain components. Also noticed it took a
bit of extra effort breaking when I was trying to slow down from 70MPH when
I was cut off.
I really had no complaints about the Buckshot's off road and if I wasn't
driving the beast 75miles a day on highway I would have been happy keeping
them. I thought about another set of tires and wheels for weekly driving but
really didn't want to go that route.
On another note a bearing knock I heard turns out to be my water pump. Oh
well it's got 112K on it so no complaints.
Barnett