----------
From: Bill Ritchie[SMTP:billnsandi@kingwoodcable.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 6:48 PM
Subject: [D90] 2 interesting websites
I just checked out a couple of good websites that offer LR specific stuff
and thought it would be of benefit to the rest of you.
http://www.jie.com/ - Source for ZF autos and such
http://www.XKS.com/index.html - Large online parts source for LR and Jaguar
Bill R
----------
From: Gomes, David
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 4:47 PM
Subject: [D90] transmission reference
One AWESOME reference site.
http://www.transonline.com/
If you select "Total Tech Database" in the LH menu bar, then choose "Quick
Specs" from the "Select a Manufacturer" pull down menu, then click on the
"Check Ball Locations" link, and finally find "Land Rover" in the main
window, you can get valve body info for the ZF4HP22. The "Cooler Return
Line Chart" link also identifies the line coming into the bottom of the
trans just behind the bell housing, as the return line. I guess this means
in normal operation, as the flow reverses on torque converter lock up.
The best has to be the contest winners who assembled an automatic
transmission from parts in about 10 minutes.....BLINDFOLDED! :^)
-Dave G.
----------
From: Jeremy Bartlett[SMTP:bartlett@slip.net]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] ZF says NO to external filter for LR auto trans
..........[extraneous material clipped - ed.]......
Also, FWIW there is/was a LR specific rebuild manual on the ZF (the 22 rather
than the 24 which is the later hydraulic box). I have a "xerox" copy but
couldn't locate anyone selling the original; it was published by LR and titled
Automatic Transmission Service Product Training. The LR number is LSM0236TM,
copyright 1988.
Jeremy
----------
From: Kelly Minnick[SMTP:kminnick@gte.net]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Follow up from JIE
Transmission Exchange out of Oregon has the 'manual' for the ZF 4HP-22 for
$12.00. It's a great manual and includes the info on the 'A' clutch fix.
They also sell hard and soft parts at great prices, completely rebuilt
units, and Lube Guard. Pan gasket is like $7.50 and filter is $13.00. Same
prices for my BMW 535. BMP also has about the same prices, but only carry
the one for the 535...
http://www.txchange.com/index.shtml
Later,
Kelly Minnick
----------
From: Bill Ritchie[SMTP:billnsandi@kingwoodcable.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 5:24 PM
Subject: [D90] Tranny Problems - no solution yet
finally got some time to drop the big skid plate and drain the
Transmission fluid. I cycled through 3 volumes of tranny fluid with no
improvement in the performance. I haven't dropped the tranny sump yet (lack
of daylight time).
Has anyone dropped the tranny sump without removing the y-pipes (just
loosening the crossmember and wiggling it out)?
I sent a description of the problem to Dave and Ian Ashcroft in the UK and
here is what Dave sent back -
Hi,
if the oil is burnt it is bad news but there are a few checks you can do
before costing up another unit, 2 things can make hard late shifts,
stuck kickdown valve and a sticky governor,
1) drain the oil, drop the tranny sump and look inside for debris, change
the filter, while the sump is off check that the kick down cam is operating
as you push down the throttle the cam pushes a plunger back, this plunger
sometimes sticks in the 'full throttle' position giving a late ,hard,
shift,. Refill with new oil.
2) If there is no improvement after the above you will need to remove and
clean the governor as it could well be sticking, this is not at all
difficult but you will need to remove the transfer case and them the tranny
rear casting to get at it. when you refit it be careful not to damage the 3
rubber piston rings,
if you want to talk through this job please call me on + 44 1582 750400,
Dave
Soooo, my next step is to drop the sump and check the kickdown cam and
replace the filter. If that doesn't work then I may try my luck at the
dealer (hopefully under warranty).
Thanks for all the input,
Bill Ritchie
'97 D90 ST AA Yellow "Tonka"
----------
From: Jeremy Bartlett[SMTP:bartlett@slip.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] for Jeremy Bartlett re: tranny fluid
"Gomes, David" wrote:
> I'd like to change my ZF auto box (in '98 Disco) over to synthetic ATF. ...
> what is the recommended
> procedure for accomplishing a full fluid change out, say if the fluid had
> been contaminated?
First I'd be very hesitant about changing to synthetic before checking very
carefully that the fluid
is compatible with the ZF box. Changes in viscosity can for all practical
purposes disable an automatic transmission.
WRT changing the fluid there's no easy way on the ZF. The TC can't be readily
drained. There is a flush/filter set up supplied to the dealers but in only
fits/works on some boxes (dumb bastards supplying the tool can't even get
hydraulic fittings right). Basically you'd be flushing old fluid out with
successive new (or pull the tranny and swap/drain the TC :)).
Bottom line is no easy way and I'd check twice before doing it.
Jeremy
----------
From: Scott Monico[SMTP:smonico@monico.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:49 PM
Subject: [D90] transmission fluid analysis
I saw this in the December issue of Truck Trend:
"Knowing when to change your transmission fluid has often been a combination
of manufacturer-recommended service intervals and guesstimation, depending
on the severity of the vehicles duty. With Allison Transmissions new
transmission analysis kit, the guesswork is taken out of the equation by
enabling truck owners to accurately assess fluid change intervals based on
the actual life of the oil, instead of mileage.
The kit provides an easy to use postage paid container and results are
returned in a week. All you have to do is send a sample of your tranny
fluid in the container to Allison and they will do the rest.
The analysis provides a complete profile, including metal analysis, water
content, viscosity at 40 and 100 degrees Celsius, Total Acid Number,
Severity status, and running data plots.
If you are looking to determine how well your transmission fluid is holding
up, protect your transmission, and lower your cost of ownership, grab
Allisons Transmission Oil Analysis Kit (P/N 29537805) at your local Allison
dealer or call 888.456.0120."
----------
From: Gomes, David
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [D90] Auto trans pump flow
".....I have never used it but there is a transmission flushing machine in a
good number or full service garages....."
This was my original intention (to use a flushing machine). But, when I
asked here on the list the first time, Jeremy Bartlett said even the LR
dealers didn't have the right fittings to use with the machine they'd been
supplied with. I asked the techs at LR Colorado Springs when I was in there
and they concurred, fittings were not generally available to hook a LR to
one of these machines. One fellow there had a good idea, buy a LR cooler
line, cut it in two, and make a union from common fittings to be used in
flushing. They also said they thought there might be a shop in Denver that
could do it on a LR, but some calls from the yellow pages went for naught.
Based on off-list replies from Rob Dassler and Dave Ashcroft, I think I'll
just let the trans drain overnight, and then pull the cooler lines and blow
them out. This should get me most of the fluid. And, since the factory
service is only draining the pan, I'll at least be doing better than that.
I've decided not to go to synthetic for now anyway, so getting every drop of
fluid isn't such a big concern.
Thanks to all for your help on this.
-Dave G.
----------
From: Robert Dassler[SMTP:roadsiderob@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:14 PM
To: Gomes, David
David
I do not know what the flow rate of the ZF pump is but I have some
suggestions.
1) Pull the plug with the trans warm and let drain overnight--you will get
closer to 6.5 quarts out.
2)you will get even more if you pull the lines (watch the o-rings) and
drain/blow out the cooler.
3) Are you sure of the 11 quart capacity--when installing a new trans I have
never put in more than 8 and I cannot see the converter holding 3 quarts for
very long.
Rob Dassler
----------
From: Jeremy Bartlett[SMTP:bartlett@slip.net]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] Follow up from JIE
"Gomes, David" wrote:
> I think these filter/gasket prices are probably close enough to what someone
> like BP gets
I've not done it but any auto supply parts can probably get you the parts. The
transmission was used on some Volvo's, BMW's and Peugeot models. Nothing
different about the gasket and filter to my knowledge.
> , and since in order to replace the filter you have to drop the
> exhaust and replace the donuts on the down-pipes anyway,
No donuts. Have a supply of exhaust manifold studs, nuts and flange gaskets
ready though (and possibly exhaust manifold gaskets and locktabs if you're
paranoid ... see below). The best approach is to loosen but not remove the
exhaust manifold flange studs and allow the y-pipe to drop to it's maximum
amount without removing it. Knock the x-member forward and that will allow
sufficient space to drop the pan. Be prepared to have an exhaust stud shear.
The rustier your environment the worse this possibility is. If this happens you
will have to R&R the manifold to drill out the stub (or worse case Helicoil or
replace the manifold). I'd say the chances are about 5% of this happening in an
environment like California ... worse elswhere.
Jeremy
----------
From: Gomes, David
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 11:44 AM
Subject: ZF says NO to external filter for LR auto trans
Okay, I've done a little research in response to Cliff's desire to fit an external transmission fluid filter.
First of all, let me say a HUGE thank you to Bill Ritchie for the (very timely) link to http://www.jie.com/ the fellow I spoke to there (Jurgen) is, in my opinion, a true professional, very helpful, and dedicated to good customer service. This guy has been running all around for me for the last day and a half, and I didn't plan to spend a cent with him.
When I first asked Jurgen if I could fit an external filter to the ZF transmission's cooler line, his response was (in your best German accent), "it never hurts". I then told him I'd heard from some pretty reliable sources that the fluid flow in the cooler lines would reverse on torque converter lock up and effectively, back-flush the filter. He said he wasn't sure, and that this was the first time someone had asked him, but that he would check with ZF's US office in Chicago.
With a couple more rounds of phone calls, and Jurgen chasing down engineers at ZF, it came down to this.
The ZF transmissions in our Defenders and Discos have a mechanical valve body. There is an electronic valve body model, but it would be recognizable from in the cab by a "sport/economy" switch near the shift lever. ours is all mechanical (YEA!!!) and controlled by cables and levers. According to the engineers at ZF, in the mechanical version (like ours) the fluid flow in the cooler lines DOES reverse when the torque converter locks up, so unless some extra system of check valves and bypass lines were fitted along with the filter, the filter would be pointless because it would self-backflush every time the torque converter locked and unlocked. Or worse yet, if a canister type filter with anti-drainback valve were inadvertently fitted, it would try to stop all flow when the converter locked up and fluid reversed.
On top of that, Jurgen said he was advised by the ZF engineers that one should NEVER fit an external filter to this model of transmission. Upon torque converter lock up, the pressures in the cooler lines go to 60-70 psi and ZF knows of at least one case where an external filter ruptured, spilling fluid onto the exhaust and setting fire to the vehicle. So they say DON'T DO IT.
I know, I know, I too could design a system that would be safe and effective. But for the added cost and complexity, it's just not worth it, in my opinion. I'll stick to changing the fluid and the internal filter.
And here's Jurgen's words on that. He says it's his own personal opinion and practice (NOT from ZF, or anyone else) that the transmission fluid should be drained (what you can get from the pan) every 10,000 miles and the internal filter replaced every 30,000 miles for optimum performance and long life. Transmission fluid, even the good stuff, is cheap enough that I can afford to do this. And with the price of replacement transmissions and parts, I think it's cheap insurance. ZF is nice enough to provide an easy access drain plug, so I say, make use of it every 10,000 miles, or every 3rd engine oil change for most of us.
Jurgen also says he has repair manuals available for the ZF transmission. He says the only drawback of this manual is that it doesn't provide information on the valve body, one of the more complex parts of the trans. But if one is interested in overhauling the ZF trans with new clutches, seals, steels, bands, etc, this manual would help. I have him checking for me now on the price of the manual, and his price on filter kits. I'll follow up this post when I have more information. JIE also supplies various levels of rebuild kits for the ZF transmissions, with all OEM parts. Transtar is another source of rebuild kits, but they are not OEM ZF parts.
-Dave G.
------------------
From: Clarke Williams[SMTP:clarkewilliams@halcyon.com]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 3:46 PM
Subject: Torqueflight 727 tranny in a V8 Defender.
>So what would it take (or is it possible) to put the Torqueflight 727 tranny
>in a V8 Defender.
Chuque,
Stock parts, nothing more. Sorry I don't have part numbers but I'll try and get them later. The parts required:
TF-727 to LR V8 flex-plate and torque converter (better are available -- check out Art Carr Performance -- this is who Ashcroft gets their high performance bits from)
Bellhousing to TF-727 adapter ring
TF-727 itself
TF-727 output housing to mate with the LT-230
TF-727 to LT-230 coupler shaft
(slightly different from LT-77 or R-380) transfer box shifter and linkage
Art Carr also has a really nice manual shift valve body kit for the TF-727 (Ashcroft uses it in their race boxes).
BTW, if you use the GKN overdrive (from Ashcroft) with the TF-727, you will have a bulletproof autobox with a really nice overdrive. Best thing in an autobox next to the NV-4500 5-speed manual.
P.S. With the TF-727, you have several American V8s (including the GM diesel) that can be used to replace the LR V8 and start getting decent power, torque, (and in the case of the diesel) fuel efficiency. Hummers (at 8500 lbs dry) get around 15-16 mpg with the diesel. LRs get around 25-28 mpg.
Cheers,
Clarke
----------
From: Robert Dassler[SMTP:roadsiderob@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [D90] Auto conversion
A while back I priced out a tranny conversion. To put a factory automatic
into a 95d90 complete with everything including shift interlock, 97 console,
wiring, trans, shifter, cooler, front grill panel with cooler cutouts, and
all assorted pieces came to over $10,000 with all new factory parts. I think
it can be done, and probably for less cost if used or reconditioned
components are used. The transmission will probably be the inexpensive
part--its all the other bits to hook it up and make it work properly that
will make up the bulk of the work and cost. The job I priced out was
declined. I know my estimate was on the high side but I had to go at it with
the idea that the vehicle had to be troubleshootable and repairable at any
LR dealer. I also had to insure that it would be safe and legal and include
the shift interlock mechanisms and safety systems. This added significantly
to the cost. I also had to consider what would happen should the vehicle be
sold and make sure that it was a sound swap that would be reliable for any
subsequent owners. Just some food for thought.
Rob Dassler