ARB vs. Detroit's

[souza]

Hey Folks,

I'm looking for some advice here. I'm considering putting lockers in my Defender (going to change gears to 4:10 too) and I'm trying to decide between an ARB or a Detroit Locker/True-Trac solution. I can see how the ARB could be a slightly 'better' solution, in that you have more control off road in how you want the truck to be, and then no change in driving on road, but of course the ARB also brings added cost and complexity, and the increased breakdown possibilities that occur with any complex system. In other words, I do like the simplicity of the Detroit's. Also, in both instances, I'm upgrading the rear axles.

I'm trying to decide if the additional cost / system complexity is worth it for the ARB. Without getting into to many $$ specifics, I think the the ARB will cost at least about $800 more than the Detroit solution, which includes the added cost of having the ARB plumbing installed at a shop (for either option I'm going to get a set-up 3rd member replacement, and install that myself). In reality, that difference could increase a bit, because if I'm going to have a shop do the plumbing, I'll probably just have them do the whole swap. But for comparison sake, we'll say it's $800.

I've heard of occasions when its recommended to tackle certain obstacles unlocked, and even know of at least one person who didn't heed that warning and blew his ARB... Now that was out West, and I live in New England now and don't know when I'll make a trip west, but we do have plenty of rocks and climbs on the east coast too, so I'd like to hear opinions from anyone with the two options that could offer some insight. I'm particularly interested in how often anyone with Detroits encounter situations where they believe an ARB would have mattered, etc.

Bottom line is this: I'm spending a good chunk of change here, and I don't want to cheap out on another 8 bills if the ARB is really a superior solution that I will be glad I have. However, at about a 30% increase in cost, I don't want to go ARB if it'll only matter 2% of the time.

One more note, although the truck isn't driven daily, it does see a good bit of the street. From what I've heard, I'm under the impression that the Detroit's occasional clicking and banging won't bother or really effect me on the road. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to hear that too.

Any input on this is very much appreciated.

thanks,
Dave Souza
1995 Defender 90 SW

[mikeslandrover]

Two friends had detroit lockers in the rear and have since swapped to ARB's.
Handling on the road can be a little strange with the detroit locker in the rear particularly if you lift off the power when cornering. You need to keep the power on to keep the diff unlocked to corner on the road and the truck tends to leap about a bit if you have to lift off the power.
They also say that the controlability is an advantage with the ARB.
Just my 2p worth from someone who runs standard open diffs.

[rover4x4]

ARB rear TT up from, thats what i dream about at night.. amoung other things

[rover4x4]

i think i heard if you break a half shaft you will break the detroit, this isnt true with an ARB?

[souza]

I've been told by Bill at GBR that 80% of the time a broken shaft will ruin the Detroit. With the ARB, he says 20% of the time it happens.

Why a TT up front and not another ARB?

[snuffer]

Dave I'm at the same point as you, trying to decide Detroit or ARB. It's my understanding that if you break an axle, the Detroit has a very good chance of being trashed.
Will be watching this thread with great interest.

[rover4x4]

simplicity I guess plus it brings back the self centering of the steering that is lost with a lift. Also i personally with my intentions of wheelin wouldnt feel obligated to upgrade CV's and all with the TT. I think its a bit easier if I may on said drivetrain componets. Just thoughts, my diff's are open. so FWIW

I like the user imput with the ARB.

The ARB plumbing isnt very hard, i helped with it on a TJ and a FJ

[souza]

Randy, I've also posted this question to the D90 yahoo list and the BSROA club list... I've received two good replies from BSROA that encourge an ARB solution, for various reasons. Both actually quite critical on the True up front, suggesting ARB front no matter what.

Not yet hearing much support for the Detroit option...

[Buckon37s]

Wow,

There is a good amount of mis-information out there. We all know that you should not put a detroit up front in a truck that gets any road time. IMHO I would not put one up front in a truck that is trail only as well because sometimes you need that thing to turn off for steering. A shaft breaking CAN break a detroit in the rover carrier, I am not going to try to throw a percentage out there because that is impossible to tell but it CAN break an ARB as well.

So front ARB, they are darn tough and you really get what you pay for.

For the rear, the ARB would be great as well, but worth the extra money?? Thats the tough part. Start ranking how important things are to you. Will it affect handling, no. With full time 4wd you will forget it is back there aside from the occasional click. A good set of tires will drown that noise out anyway. You do not have selectablity but that gets offset by a very headache free system, no air line, no trouble.

In my opinion:kiss The best set up is Detroit for the rear, stick it in and forget about it. If money is not a factor at ALL, go ARB....in a rockready D60.....

The only other peace of advise I would consider is if you have 35in tires or larger, just leave the diffs open. No need to spend money just to break stuff, unless you wheel easy terrain, then you don't need lockers anyway.

P.S. keep in mind that if you ask a vendor what is the best set-up, he will say the most expensive option, because for him, it is the best set up :grin

[snuffer]

Thanks, I'll watch Yahoo also.
The thought of a broken axle...blown diff...walking home...?

I guess you could pull both axles and drive in front wheel drive.
But lets see...if the trail is bad enough to break an axle on, what are the chances of getting back out with 1/2 as many wheel drive.

[chrisvonc]

Originally posted by Buckon37s
...We all know that you should not put a Detroit up front in a truck that gets any road time. IMHO I would not put one up front in a truck that is trail only as well because sometimes you need that thing to turn off for steering. My own opinion is opposite just from my experiences. I have had TT up front of the Disco for 3+ years without issue. It locks when I need it and the TT does unlock when you turn the wheel back and forth real quick.

I agree about the Detroit in the rear as well. I have enjoyed the Detroit in the rear for almost 4 years. With the front and rear setup, I don't ever have to worry stopping clicking buttons and clicking again when out of the nasty spot. The go when I need them and stop when I don't. Simple and it works for me.

The Disco also has been my daily driver and you do need to adjust your driving habits just a bit to accommodate for the ever so faint pull wit them but other than that and a few clicks from the rear on tight right turns, all has been fine.

[chrisvonc]

Originally posted by snuffer
I guess you could pull both axles and drive in front wheel drive.
But lets see...if the trail is bad enough to break an axle on, what are the chances of getting back out with 1/2 as many wheel drive. And the drive shaft to that diff if you have blown the diff.

As long as you are with a good group, you can get off the trail in 2wd. Might take some creative tow strapping and winching on tougher trails but it can definatly be done. The guys from Discoweb pulled a rangie in their group out of Pritchett Canyon in '01.

[snuffer]

Forgot about the drive shaft, it would still be a blender wouldn't it.

[tbmcneill]

I don't want to go ARB if it'll only matter 2% of the time.

What if that 2% was the one time you ended up rolling your truck or having to buy another locker & have everything setup again?

I am heavily biased towards ARBs based on my experience .... and here's why....

If you break a heavy duty axle with a Detroit, the chances are very high you'll be replacing the locker. The chance is there with an ARB, as well, but I've seen enough axle breaks on trucks to know the ARBs fair much better.

In fact, every HD axle break i've seen with a detroit has taken out the detroit. I've never seen that happen with an ARB .. though, i have heard of 1 instance.

Also, being as though you live out east, being from NC myself & having wheeled up and down the east coast, ... there are times when you don't want the rear locked. Wheelers that just rockcrawl & never run some place like Tellico don't quite get this point.

If you almost always have traction like we do out here, its probably a mute point, a Detroit is a good option....there just aren't the slicked up trails out here like there is back east.

However, everywhere on the east coasts gets slicked up on a pretty regular basis & slippery side slopes with a Detroit will often throw/walk you sideways .... with an ARB, just unlock the rear and the non-driven rear wheel will act as an actor & keep you from 'walking' sideways.

Go with the ARBs ... front and rear. You'll be glad you did.
T
ps- &, FWIW, RT Designs (www.rovertracks.com) has no affiliation with ARB & does not sell any of their products

[Mike Hippert]

The only other peace of advise I would consider is if you have 35in tires or larger, just leave the diffs open. No need to spend money just to break stuff, unless you wheel easy terrain, then you don't need lockers anyway.

My thoughts exactly, I run 35" MTRs and NO lockers, with a little creativeness you can fallow the 33" locked guys without a hitch.

[chrisvonc]

Originally posted by Mike Hippert
My thoughts exactly, I run 35" MTRs and NO lockers, with a little creativeness you can fallow the 33" locked guys without a hitch. :grin "fallow"? Mike, what button did you forget to push? I installed the spell checker just for you! lol

[Mike Hippert]

LMAO at myself

You know I have word open too and I have been chekin my spelin for everything else I can't see how I forgot to hit that nice spelchek button.:grin

[Doug]

Guys,

Having just blown a driveshaft on the trail with two locked trucks, I finally had the realization. Having a locked axle is e-a-s-i-e-r on the rig than being open. The locked trucks were able to carefully pick their climbs, backing and filling as needed.

The only way for me to even consider making the trail on the other hand, was by using momentum -- thus I could not take my time, stop and analyze my position, back off, or change routes. I almost made it, the way I usually have in the past -- even to others amazement that my open rig could run with the locked rigs. But I came up short on this one. I know now that having at least a locked rear diff will save my rig from a lot of brutal punishment in the future. Now just need to get it done. Thinking about going Detroit in the rear....


Doug W.

[Eric Siepmann]

If you are looking for a real bomb proof set-up and cash is no object, talk to great basin rovers about Jack MacNamara Difs. They use either a cable or vacuum to lock. The downside is that they do not come cheap at all.

EwS

[souza]

I agree complelely Doug... I've had to work pretty hard to get through some things that locked trucks are able to creep right up gently. I think I'm smart enough as a driver to to know when to ease up and save the axles (I've seen enough break when the driver didn't know when to say when) Not to say the axles won't just eventually go, as I understand it is a weakening process over time due to the locker that causes the failure.

And I'd love the Mac's, but $$$ is certainly an issue in this case! ;)

[snuffer]

Have any of you seen a heavy duty 24 spline axle break (such as GBR) on a D 90. First hand without a doubt?

Don't they come with a 5 year guarantee or am I thinking of the wrong ones?
Just wondering how tough they are, could make a difference when deciding on a locker.

[tbmcneill]

well, now if we start talking money-no-object, then forget anything landrover (barring 101 CVs), and go with Dynatrac ProRock 60s or EXAXT custom Mog axles...:grin

just for kicks, check out the Mog axles...

[snuffer]

Troy that's some heavy meat, but man you need to see a doctor, your fists are as big as your head.

[revor]

I can appreciate what Troy (my business partner) says about ARBs but it is my opinion that the Detroit is fine for the back and the ARB is made for the front... Really I like to build axles big enough for spools out back buuuut...
My Wifes Disco has a TT up front and a Detroit in the rear(sals that is) it works perfectly in the ice and snow and very well in the rocks... As for the Anchor theory I can attest (?) that this is true having wheeled in Snow all my life... Side hills are scary sometimes.. But that's what that pedel on the right is for :) well and the winch in the back.
Karen's Disco surprized the wee out of me in the snow last year with the detroit and the TT it was flawless even on sidehills... With the center diff unlocked it went everywhere...

I have replaced and repaired a good many broken ARB's in the rear but only rarely up front...
Put in good axles and you will be good with either set up..
But in the end really it depends a lot on what you are going to do with the truck.. and your driving style..
Unless you have a D60 up front no Detroits there please..

Yes Troy needs to see a Doctor but only because of his dreams...
Always.... Mogs Buggies and Fancy 60's :)
I think he had these things tattooed inside his eyelids...
Gotta make this one come true...

Keith
www.rovertracks.com

[dmarchand]

My thoughts exactly, I run 35" MTRs and NO lockers, with a little creativeness you can fallow the 33" locked guys without a hitch.

What you talkin bout Willis? :afro

[Rick Carlisle]

LMAO at Randy......Troy, maybe you should have someone check those fists!

But seriously, I really appreciate this thread since my next major upgrade is the stuff you are about to do Dave.

[chrisvonc]

Originally posted by dmarchand
What you talkin bout Willis? :afro HAHA... I was not going to say anything myself but.... I seem to remember my locked 235 pizza cutters smoking those unlocked 35"s on Rabbit and then the 285s on Lisa's made it up the same spot with just a rear locker.
:)

[Mike Hippert]

Arnold you can't beat me.... you head say's 'go 'then your hands say ''whatchoo talkin' bout?''

Dave did you get your Rover Reference yet? By chance have you looked at the Front Cover??????:proud wait a second you were there.:grin

No one else took the same line I did in RI.

For those not a member of BSROA here is a pic.
And Yes I made it with some good spotting and a little wheel spin.

[Buckon37s]

east coasts gets slicked up on a pretty regular basis & slippery side slopes with a Detroit will often throw/walk you sideways

What is this slick stuff you talk about?? Like rain? Come on, whats the chance that it will ever rain? Snow? Never heard of it :sunny Hey Troy, whats your favorite beer? I gotta make sure I am all stocked up!:grin

If you are looking for a real bomb proof set-up and cash is no object, talk to great basin rovers about Jack MacNamara Difs.

I can't believe that nobody came down hard on this one! I mean damn at least a few-
:stick :stick :stick :stick :stick

[dmarchand]

YES Mike. I did get my newsletter a few days ago (same day the new Unstuck DVD came in fact).

I wasn't going to say anything because I know how much you love the spotlight... :pimp

I was too busy grilling my lunch while you, Peter and Jimmy were playing around :party


But we'll be happy to use Ken's rickety winch line, kinked and burred, to pull you up that hill in Paragon again. :ohmy

You still get the award for throwing the most mud. :tounge

[Mike Hippert]

ROTFLMAO! Lets not forget that you got to test out your new winch cable on that same spot. I think I could have made it if I could have got into third, but the faces that the 5 of you (yes even Zach) were making were not making me feel to comfortable.


David Buchberger it is snowing right now!

[dmarchand]

Agreed. My rear locker wasn't working due to an installation malfunction...:mad

[souza]

Installation malfunction? Is that another problem with the ARB's?? ;)

[mikeslandrover]

I've been wondering for a while now about fitting true tracks front and rear?
What are everyone's thoughts on that option? :idea

[tbmcneill]

Troy that's some heavy meat, but man you need to see a doctor, your fists are as big as your head... ......Troy, maybe you should have someone check those fists!

hey ... quit cracking on my special friend at EXAXT ... he can't help it ;)

What is this slick stuff you talk about?? Like rain? Come on, whats the chance that it will ever rain?....Hey Troy, whats your favorite beer? I gotta make sure I am all stocked up!

Man, you 'sun-enriched', forever summer, Cali guys!!! ... its 12 degrees outside right now & everything is covered in snow. Its what ... 74 degrees there? ...& you probably haven't seen rain since you were two ... :grin

of course, at least i can still get a tan on the slopes..:cool:

.... & I'll take a Newcastle or any good red ... & i'll bring the burritos :toast

2 weeks, 3 days & counting .....:party