Engine rebuild/replace advise needed.

[cgalpin]

I have read a few threads on this, but since things change over time, I'm going to have to ask..

My engine started a scary sounding knocking noise after what seemed to be an overheating (without the gauge going over the middle so my e-fans didn't kick in - was low on coolent though). As soon as the engine warmed up, the noise would start - you hear it at idle, and then it quietens as soon as you rev it up a little.

I took it to a local shop who does deal with rovers, but am not 100% how much. I talked to a front desk guy who said after pulling a valve cover to look, they were looking into what options to recommend me so didn't have a quote for me yet and was also a bit vague on the details, but said I have a worn camshaft and rockers. Seemed to indicate the work needed was extensive enough to consider replacing over repairing/rebuilding. Engine has under 90K on it, but seemed to overheat easily. Other than that it ran fine.

Ok, I guess my questions are two fold.

1. What questions should I be asking the shop to determine the true extent of my problem. It's not that I don't trust them, but want to fully understand the scope of this once I talk to the mechanic.

2. Assuming it's in bad shape, what options would you recommend? I am in no position to do this myself right now (although I'd love to), so thats out. I'm obviously sensitive to price, but would like to make the move that will give me the most longevity and reliability as I can going forward. I have read that rebuilding using a 4.2 or 4.6 block is better and doesn't cost much more, etc. Also is it really that much more expensive to buy a rebuilt engine than to have mine rebuilt? I'd assume having the actually rebuild work done by a shop that does rover work all the time would be best, but I really don't know.

Any and all advise would be appreciated.

thanks
charles

[Emerson00]

I know very little of engine mechanics, so this is just a "conceptual" thought...

my neighbor replaced his head gasket, and while at it did the camshaft... he ended up putting several hundred in parts into it over the course of a few weekends (it's a spare vehicle, no rush). He got it started and it runs very well.

If you read my posts, you'll see I get news like that and panic... then after seeing what's going on, ti seems I realize I can/will figure it out. I'm not saying do the work yourself; in my long-winded way, I'm saying wait until they very specifically tell you why you need a new engine. And then get second opinion(s).

[Stmpede]

Well, a cam, lifters and gasket set would be cheap, but with that mileage you really should replace the main bearings, and have the heads pressure tested b/c of the overheat. Its really up to you, you should be able to have it rebuilt relatively inexpensively by a good machine shop, but you still have to pay to have it pulled and replaced if you can't do that yourself. It will probably be cheaper than buying a rebuilt, but the real decision is whether it is worth a little more to upgrade to a 4.6 or a diesel etc. You have to really consider your options and what makes the most sense to you. Check with Pendy...he can probably help guide you in the right direction.

[Neil McCauley]

I would do a compression/leak down test. If that came out fine than I'd pull the heads and check the head gasket. If the gaskets are fine than I'd opt to drop in a new block. I'd have to make sure it wasn't just a head gasket issue. If the issue is in the crankcase, rods or piston rings i'd definately find a new block rather than fiddle with a used one (unless I was willing to take the risk of wasting money on a bad ie porous block

Neil

[huck1974]

I'm getting rid of my motor. Be about three weeks though

[MonLand]

Well, a cam, lifters and gasket set would be cheap, but with that mileage you really should replace the main bearings, and have the heads pressure tested b/c of the overheat.

Is that because the engine would be rebuilt and this is worth it or do they really wear that fast? I thought the 3.9L would last at least 250K without major maintenance (under "normal" condition).

[Stmpede]

Well, when doing rear mains I have noticed that around 100k these engines are usually showing the brass on the mains. When doing a rear main we just put em back together, but if you are doing a cam, lifters etc I think it is worth just doing it all and knowing you are good for another 100k. Also, if the cam is excessively worn it may be due to oil starvation from a bad pump, or PO not changing the oil etc. Either way, if some parts are overly worn from oil starvation I would be pretty skeptical of the mains too.

[Abrooks]

What shop was it, Charles?

[Michael]

While the Cylinder Head is pressure tested, can the valve guides be left in place?

Follow-up Post:

"If" you have the money:

International HS2.8L from M&D + ZF 4HP24 from Ashcroft

[cgalpin]

High Tech Auto and truck in chantilly. Trying to not look impatient, so waiting to hear back from them still.

Thanks for the advise guys. Once I get some info on what's wrong, I'll report back.

I'd like nothing more than to go diesel, but fully expect it to be out of my budget. I'll do some research though.

charles

[Abrooks]

Doing a head job is pretty darn easy and inexpensive. First, though, I'd make sure to get a second opinion. Might be worth a trip up to Treasured motorcars.

[cgalpin]

Yeah, I'll need to talk to Trevor about it once I get the scoop.

charles

[MonLand]

Just as an FYI, I read this on the discoweb.org web site (extract from a thread where someone is asking how to get more power from a '95 Disco 3.9L engine):
==========================
At 135K, the cam will be showing some wear, there are probably a hundred sub $150 choices for a new one. A new cam, inexpensive lifters, a chain and sprockets will restore what it had when new and then some. For under $500 and a good Saturday, it's the cheapest power you will ever get out of this engine.
==========================
So make _sure_ the problem is really the worn cam, no one mention any noise.

[MonLand]

Another copy-paste from Discoweb regarding an engine problem (DII though, so... different engine?):
============
Heads rattle like dice in a cup (rocker arms, I'm told)
============

[Stmpede]

Yeah, rocker arms are a common problem. The funny thing is he mentions excessive wear on the cam and lifters only a week after a tech was showing me a DII cam he removed where one lobe was almost round and one bearing journal was destroyed. The engine came in missing and he couldn't figure it out right away. Fortunately that one is still in warranty though, so he just ordered a new shortblock through rover. I have never seen excessive wear on a single lobe and journal though...must have been a blocked oil passage or something...

[cgalpin]

It's funny you say that, but to my untrained ear it sounded like it was just one lobe/lifter on mine too. A blocked oil passage might explain it. Still waiting for info, but realized it's past closing time, so I guess I'll be calling on monday.

As an aside, how bad of an idea would it be do drive it like this? I'm pondering my options for taking it for second and third opinions and wonder if I can risk driving it like this.

Tony, do I hear you volunteering to come out to the 'burbs to help me work on this pig?

charles

[Abrooks]

Sure

[Nomar]

Charles, once you find out a little more about your current motor status, I would get in touch with Will Tillery. He's putting a 4.6 into his own D-90 I believe, but you could always source another 4.0 to keep it cheaper. Since you're in VA, I would seriously consider shipping the truck to Will in Danville(probably less than $250!) and you'll get a thorough job done at better rates than NoVa! Just something to consider...

[cgalpin]

Thanks Tony.

JB, I'll certainly look into that, thanks.

Still don't have the details but I swung by the shop yesterday evening to peek at it and caught the front desk guy. I got the same vagueness from him, but did find out who had been looking at it and will ask for him monday morning. They clearly wont be a good option for the work - he mentioned getting a rebuilt motor from AB for $9k, or 33 hours of labor (at $100/hr) for a rebuild (not sure exactly what though and then of course you'd have all the parts ad machine shop on top of that I assume).

I'll buy an old jeep for the summer and fix it at my own pace before paying those kind of rates I think :)

charles

[Abrooks]

Agreed on sourcing a motor from Will, but I'd put some work into the existing one first. It just seems odd that at that mileage a motor that's been maintained and didn't suffer multiple or catastrophic overheating would go south. I sure as hell wouldn't spend $12K at a shop that may or may not know what they're doing, though. Loic may well be on to something with a bad rocker assembly to start. If it were me, I'd get a second opinion from Trevor or maybe that airpark rover place in Gaithursburg and see what thier thoughts are. From there we can start turning a wrench or two.

[Bowtracer]

Put a 4.6 or 4.2 lower in your 3.9 with a cam & some porting & a balance job & youll have some NICE power

Try some marvel mystery oil in the cc if that quiets it down your ok. 90k is not that many miles if you have taken any sort of care.

build another engine & drive it till it puks!


Will is a great guy but why not build what you want get a block from D&D 500$ put the shit in it you want its not rocket science..

[flippedrover]

Just an FYI Trevor isn't with Treasured anymore. He's got his own shop in Elizabethtown PA. About 2.5 hours from me. His email is trevor@roverlab.com Btw let me know if you need help.

[Emerson00]

...that airpark rover place in Gaithursburg ...
wassat? I know that area a little bit (Battley Cycles is there I think)... I need a good shop.

[CaptMidnite]

If your engine overheated, it is also possible the cylinder liners came loose, and are moving up and down slightly with the piston as the engine runs. The cylinder liners are basically pipes made out of steel pressed into the aluminum block at time of manufacture. Rover tolerances being what they are, the liners on many engines weren't well seated (engine machining shavings, etc in the way). So when it overheats, it comes loose and gets only worse with time; it's called a "dropped liner." Notorious rover engine problem. Basically, any competent auto machine shop can pull out the old liners and press in slightly larger ones. Don't know the cost.

[Abrooks]

Not to be a contrarion, but I'd be amazed if he'd dropped a liner on a 3.9 with low miles and good maintainence. A 4.0 with 150K with infrequent oil changes, sure, but these are strong motors. My gut says that a head job will resolve this. Hell, we couldn't even hear the knock the other night! Granted, it is a rover, so all bets are off the table. . .

[Bowtracer]

If your engine overheated, it is also possible the cylinder liners came loose, and are moving up and down slightly with the piston as the engine runs. The cylinder liners are basically pipes made out of steel pressed into the aluminum block at time of manufacture. Rover tolerances being what they are, the liners on many engines weren't well seated (engine machining shavings, etc in the way). So when it overheats, it comes loose and gets only worse with time; it's called a "dropped liner." Notorious rover engine problem. Basically, any competent auto machine shop can pull out the old liners and press in slightly larger ones. Don't know the cost.


I have tried to press these out & its not an easy thing. If you get it out then what are you gonna put in??

[cgalpin]

Oh yeah, at these rates, it opens the doors to all kinds of options, even towing it around to various places for estimates. But I'm liking the sound of having them put it back together and try some marvel mystery oil and see if I can at least run it around to get opinions from rover folks.

Tony, literally as I hit the street it started up again - didn't want to turn around in case you guys had pulled out already. Then by the time I pulled off 66 (say 30 minutes) it didn't make the noise. The next day it was back again...

Again I need to hear exactly what this mechanic thinks he's seeing. They said they recently worked on a disco with a similar issue.

In the interest of full disclosure I have no idea if the PO maintained this well or not. I have hardly put any miles on it but have changed the oil regularily. It has had a overheating problem, and gone into the red on more than one occasion, but nothing recently until this incident, and I am not sure it actualy overheated this time anyway.

charles

[Abrooks]

Guess I left just in time then! :-)
I wonder if it could even be something as simple as a blown lifter.

[Stmpede]

Thats what I was just thinking. What does it sound like? First he said knocking, now it sounds like you guys are describing it as more of a ticking/valve train sound. I don't think the rocker arms will quiet down after running so I would lean toward the lifters. It might be worth replacing them and seeing how it sounds then...certainly a lot cheaper than a complete rebuild/replacement.

[cgalpin]

Sadly no-one but my self and this shop has heard it. It doesn't sounds like a typical valve train noise to me. It was much louder and singular sounding (to me anyway). It's definitely a knocking sound but don't know how to describe it better. Ran great otherwise - Tony even commented on it.

Wouldn't a competent mechanic be able to tell if it was a bad lifter? There isn't anything special about this engine - it's like old 70's american stuff right?

I think I'll get the mechanic's opinion of the problem on monday and ask them to put it back together. When I checked Friday they had it stripped down to the point of having the cam exposed. I'll record the sound for you guys to hear.

What does a used 3.9/40 engine from a disco run?

charles

[Stmpede]

Probably a few hundred from a junkyard & it'll probably come with a short term warranty and most of the ancilliaries too!

[Abrooks]

If they have it stripped down that far already, why not just have it towed home, replace the lifters, rods and rockers, get the heads machined and put it back together? They've done the hard work of disassembly and if they haven't seen a burnt piston or something else obvious, I'd just go for the top-end rebuild. Hell, if worse comes to worst, you could just swap over those components to a new shortblock. The cost of those parts is minimal and there's a machine shop in Falls Church that knows rover heads and will rebuild with new valves for under $500.

Remember that if you get a used motor you have even less knowledge of its history than you do of your existing one . . .

[Stmpede]

True, personally I would rebuild, but for someone who can't do the work and wants to save money, it is an option. Actually I have always thought it was BS that some of the aftermarket/extended warranty companies make our techs install junkyard engines b/c they don't want to cough up the $$ for a factory shortblock!

[MonLand]

If they have it stripped down that far already, why not just have it towed home, replace the lifters, rods and rockers, get the heads machined and put it back together? They've done the hard work of disassembly.

I'll help you tow it if you want. I ditto Tony's comment: now the hard part is done (diagnostic), getting the parts and fixing the head will be the easy part. Probably half an afternoon. Worth the trouble if you ask me.

Remember that if you get a used motor you have even less knowledge of its history than you do of your existing one . . .
Used motor would be a temporary solution until you get yours cleaned up.

[Abrooks]

There ya go, Charles, between you, Loic and myself, we can have it realistically buttoned back up in an afternoon. Just order the parts (non-rover for a lot of them), have the heads rebuilt and we'll knock it out. Supply beers and pizza and I'm sure we can get 10 more people giving moral support!

[cgalpin]

Ok, let me talk to the tech and report back exactly what he thinks is good and bad. I'm game for doing a top end rebuild if you guys will assist - I really appreciate the offer. I'm pretty green at this so I'd even need help determining what other parts I'd need.

What are we talking here? Using AB prices for parts (i assume worst case) I'm guessing

rebuild heads $500
lifters $200
pushrods $100
rockers $?
camshaft $200 (does this include bearings?)
timing chain and sprocket? $?
misc like new seals, head bolts? $?

Just want to make sure I understand what were talking about here.

If there was a worst case scenario where It was determined I should abandon my block, I see AB is selling new short blocks for $3800. If I went that route, are we pretty much talking the same additional costs as the above to swap it out?

thanks
charles

[Stmpede]

You wouldn't need the cam, timing chain or sprockets with the shortblock. Not sure if lifters would come with the new one or not, but I doubt it. Unless the pushrods are bent I wouldn't bother replacing them, just clean them up real well and they will be fine. Unfortunately the gaskets and head bolts are surprisingly expensive (although not as bad as for the Bosch engine).

BTW, you should replace the intake bolts as well as the head bolts.

[Bowtracer]

Why are you making this so hard for your self!
Call these guys order what you need & build yourself an engine with some giddy up.
http://www.aluminumv8.com/

[themaxx]

Why are you making this so hard for your self!
Call these guys order what you need & build yourself an engine with some giddy up.
http://www.aluminumv8.com/ Peter has a good point. When I spoke to these guys about 6 months ago, they stated for around $2000 they could build a better than new 4.6. The PITA part would be shipping and installation and I don't know what their time frame is in comparison to yours.

[cgalpin]

Hehe. Not trying to make things hard on myself and if you really can get a rebuild for $2k, I'm all for it. I get a busy signal on their number though. I'll keep trying.

Ok, I just got off the phone with the mechanic who looked at my truck. He didn't do a compression test before opening it up, and hasn't actually removed the heads so he couldn't offer me his opinion on the pistons/cylinders. He did say he cut open the oil filter and found bit of metal. He said he tested for exhaust gas in the coolant and found none, but that wasn't necessarily conclusive as it may only happen at high temperatures. Things he said were bad:

1. A few worn lobes on the cam, at least one bad enough to start getting the rocker loose enough to make a noise

2. lifters worn

3. Said would need rocker arm shafts (not cheap at AB)

4. more than 15deg slop in the timing chain

5. valves worn a bit


Other than the rocker arm shafts I am not sure any of this is outside the scope of the top end rebuild we have been discussing correct? Still not sure what the real cost of this will be.

charles

[Abrooks]

That list makes sense -- do some research on pirate, there are plenty of cross reference parts for this project; for instanct, summit will sell you the cam (crower) and Cloys double roller timing chain and sprockets. Get the full gasket set from AB. Replacing the entire engine isn't that difficult, just more time consuming.

Do you know which headgaskets were on there?

And, for the record, if the mechanic didn't do a compression or leakdown test and just started pulling off the intake, I think I'd be looking for a new mechanic.

[Bowtracer]

sounds like your noise was upper end stuff. won't know until the heads are off & you can see the pistons & walls.

d&d has all the parts you will need. some cheaper & some a little more. but buying from one place makes it easyer....IMHO

The cost will be what it will be but it should last a long time as after market shit is better than rover..ie cam lifters t chain

If d&d builds a motor for you you shouldn't have to worry about your mech screwing it up as the engine replace is pretty straight forward. [& i think cheaper in the long run]supply him torque specs & your in.

you have to pay to do a pirate search dweb is a better resource..

[MonLand]

If d&d builds a motor for you you shouldn't have to worry about your mech screwing it up as the engine replace is pretty straight forward. [& i think cheaper in the long run]supply him torque specs & your in.

With enough advanced notice, if you were to drive there on Sunday, then I'd guess they could do the work on Monday and you could drive back on Monday night/Tuesday?! It's only a 10 hour drive according to Google Maps.

[themaxx]

With enough advanced notice, if you were to drive there on Sunday, then I'd guess they could do the work on Monday and you could drive back on Monday night/Tuesday?! It's only a 10 hour drive according to Google Maps. Forgot to add this caveat, D&D does NOT do installs. :(

[MonLand]

Forgot to add this caveat, D&D does NOT do installs. :(
Hum... So.... Maybe you have to have more advanced notice and plan to ask them for some space temporarily to do the re-install?! :)
Or just drop the engine in the back of the truck and go home to do the re-install there. But then, you'd miss out on all the good stuff that could happen trying to get the engine back into the truck quickly in an unknown place with very limited time.... No, driving back with the engine in the back of a truck would be too easy/not risky enough. ;-) [Not sure how much shipping back and forth of an engine would cost... I'm thinking forward air but still have no idea of how much]

[Bowtracer]

Peanuts compared to time & gas money

[Abrooks]

you have to pay to do a pirate search dweb is a better resource..

There are a bunch of us on here that are red star members there -- I'll try to pull what I can find over there for ya, though I'm sure you're right that it's on dweb, too. Membership over there is well worth the $20 for the search function alone.

[Neil McCauley]

Don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but if anyone is around the Los Angeles area and wants to see/help me biuld a 4.0 & 4.6 block let me know. Roverphiles are somewhat deficient around these parts.

Neil

[cgalpin]

Neil, how far along in the project are you? Are you just getting started, or have you already done the legwork getting the best prices on parts etc? If you have, please share.

thanks :)

charles

[evilfij]

I have the one out of the 110 here. It runs like crap but I am assuming that is a fuel/spark issue.

I can run a compression test and see if you want a CHEAP used motor. I would need yours as a core to rebuild with my 4.6 block for future use though.

Ron

[Neil McCauley]

Neil, how far along in the project are you? Are you just getting started, or have you already done the legwork getting the best prices on parts etc? If you have, please share.

thanks :)

charlesCharles, I have a brand spanking new 4.0 and a 4.6 block. I also have a good used 4.0 that I want to biuld up as well. Or mabye I'll sell the used block not sure. I have one pair of used 4.0 heads that need to go to the machine shop. I want to biuld up the 4.6 block with those heads, or I can always get an extra set of rebiult 3.9 heads from British Pacific for about $400. So basically I have a new 4.6 block, full gasket set, new 4.2 cam, chain, gears, lifters, push rods, 4.2 RRC computer chip and new head bolts. Just need heads, new rocker assembly, timing cover (mine has been used twice already, kinda scared to use it a third time) assembly lube, hylomar and sealant. This block would go into my 94 ST. Also I have a beater RRC for sale in my parking lot, anyone wants it for cheap? lol

Neil



BTW, I get great prices on parts from BP. You can say I get the secret hand shake hook up. :grin What are you looking for (parts) anyway? I think I might be able to get you a 4.6 short block (new) for 3700.

[Bowtracer]

I think I might be able to get you a 4.6 short block (new) for 3700.

you can build 2 4.6's for that

[cgalpin]

Peter, I spoke to Mark from D&D today, but didn't discuss him building me a motor as he didn't steer me in that direction. Instead we discussed the parts I'd need to repair mine, and although I don't know the total yet, I don't see how you could build a 4.6 for 2K, let alone have him do it. I'll find out tomorrow though :)

charles

[Bowtracer]

Peter has a good point. When I spoke to these guys about 6 months ago, they stated for around $2000 they could build a better than new 4.6. The PITA part would be shipping and installation and I don't know what their time frame is in comparison to yours.

It can be done
I bought 2 complete 4.6's for 1700 you have to shop around.

[Neil McCauley]

I think I might be able to get you a 4.6 short block (new) for 3700.

you can build 2 4.6's for that


Yeah, but your not talking about new blocks, your talking used, and there are those (like me) in the rover aluminum engine group that have had porous blocks in the past and would prefer new blocks. Cheapest new 4.6 long block is a bit over 4k from some guy on e-bay. Cheapest new 4.6 short block so far I've seen is 3700. I'd rather deal in Brand new rather than take a gamble on someone's used block.

Neil

[themaxx]

Yeah, but your not talking about new blocks, your talking used, and there are those (like me) in the rover aluminum engine group that have had porous blocks in the past and would prefer new blocks. Cheapest new 4.6 long block is a bit over 4k from some guy on e-bay. Cheapest new 4.6 short block so far I've seen is 3700. I'd rather deal in Brand new rather than take a gamble on someone's used block.

NeilNeil, I also would rather have a brand new block. D&D puts up a convincing arguement as to why a 4.6 rebuilt by him, is a better option other than the price. Give him a call if you're curious, I couldn't begin to explain the specifics.

[Bowtracer]

blocks don't become porous they were cast that way so a used block would have been tested already right!

The real risk is if it were overheated or warped not porous. Crate engines have be porous as well.
I too would like a new block but don't mind a used one. ESP at 2 for one!

I guess the differance is I do most of my work therefore I have no shop bills except machine work.
I wil stop now as this doesn't help Charles..

[kellymoe]

Charles, I have a brand spanking new 4.0 and a 4.6 block. I also have a good used 4.0 that I want to biuld up as well. Or mabye I'll sell the used block not sure. I have one pair of used 4.0 heads that need to go to the machine shop. I want to biuld up the 4.6 block with those heads, or I can always get an extra set of rebiult 3.9 heads from British Pacific for about $400. So basically I have a new 4.6 block, full gasket set, new 4.2 cam, chain, gears, lifters, push rods, 4.2 RRC computer chip and new head bolts. Just need heads, new rocker assembly, timing cover (mine has been used twice already, kinda scared to use it a third time) assembly lube, hylomar and sealant. This block would go into my 94 ST. Also I have a beater RRC for sale in my parking lot, anyone wants it for cheap? lol

Neil



BTW, I get great prices on parts from BP. You can say I get the secret hand shake hook up. :grin What are you looking for (parts) anyway? I think I might be able to get you a 4.6 short block (new) for 3700.


Damn!! Where are you located. Do you have any 3.9 stuff sitting around? I will be rebuilding a 3.9 for my D130 in the near future. You sound like a great resource. I'm in Burbank.

[Neil McCauley]

blocks don't become porous they were cast that way so a used block would have been tested already right!

The real risk is if it were overheated or warped not porous. Crate engines have be porous as well.
I too would like a new block but don't mind a used one. ESP at 2 for one!

I guess the differance is I do most of my work therefore I have no shop bills except machine work.
I wil stop now as this doesn't help Charles..
Last week, I was watching Pete at Huntington Service Center install this 4.6 biuld up by FMS into a 4.2 RRC. The machine shop (FMS) had been doing rover heads for Pete and John for decades and they even swore they pressure tested this block before assembly. It had new pistons, rings.... the works. As soon as they start it up, it starts blowing some steam from the tail pipe. They think its no big deal and its probably probably water in the exhaust as that rover was sitting for months before the install. 20 minutes go by and its still blowing steam, they check the radiator is its low. Needless to say, they couldn't believe they might have to pull this block out again after all that work. I watched them do a pressure/leak down, narrowed it down to #6 and pull the heads off. No soot on #6, steam cleaned. Gasket was fine......Block has to come out! They are still trying to figure out who's going to pay for the labor and the customer was literally in tears when he found out (Big black guy who is a sheriff deputy) lol. I'm just saying, I'd rather not take the chance man, an extra thousand is worth the peace of mind for me, especially when everything else on the truck costs so much.




Damn!! Where are you located. Do you have any 3.9 stuff sitting around? I will be rebuilding a 3.9 for my D130 in the near future. You sound like a great resource. I'm in Burbank.

I'm in South Pasadena. Hmm, I suppose you could cannibalize that 3.9 I'm going to pull out of my truck. That motor was replaced in 2000 by Hunting Service Center in San Marino by Pete and John. It's still fresh and I've used nothing but synthetic since the last 50k. What exactly do you need? I have 4.0 parts lying around from a P32A RR. I think 3.9 is too weak for your 130. It's bad enough in a 90, can't believe you still want to use that even with a cam upgrade.

Neil

[robisonservice]

At our shop, we do rebuild 3.9 motors but the newer cross bolted 4.0 or 4.6 are much better designs, and most owners choose to upgrade to them.

One thing no one mentioned here is that the pistons are often worn out, too, and they are costly.

And with respect to the original complaint - cams are not a cause of overheating or sudden noise. They wear gradually. The overheating suggest some other issue.

[cgalpin]

Thanks John

I plan on replacing the head gaskets to be sure. If the block had any major issues, wouldn't there have been more evidence? I showed no exhaust leak in the coolant according to the mechanic that looked at my truck.

Personally I think my overflow tanks has a leak at the seam and I have just been losing coolant over time as pressure built up and then escaped there.

charles

[Davis]

You can fairly easily pressure test your coolant tank. Are you using the oh too small black metal coolant tank still? Those suck. I would recommend upgrading to the larger plastic clear or black disco tank if you are. It can bolt on in the same place. It has a slightly different hose configuration, but that is easily overcome (I tapped the extra out into one of my heater hoses).

[Bowtracer]

does your mech have the heads off yet

[cgalpin]

Chris, yes the old small metal tank. I'll look into replacing it with a larger one.

Peter, no the heads are on, but the rocker assemblies have been removed and the camshaft/rods/tappets are exposed. Am I in a position to do any testing with it like this? I'm not sure how much work it would be to re-assemble just to do some further testing, but if it would allow me to say for certain if my block and bottem end is good or not, Id consider it.

The sad thing is I took it to the shop for exactly this reason. I am a parts changer at best. I expected them to be able to at least properly diagnose it, and do any tests that could be done before opening it up.

I am waiting for them to get all the bits together that they pulled so I can have it towed home.

charles

[kellymoe]

I think 3.9 is too weak for your 130. It's bad enough in a 90, can't believe you still want to use that even with a cam upgrade.

Neil

LOL!! I have a 3.5 in there now. I want to keep the carburetor set up I have in there and with the 3.9 it's pretty simple to keep the carb without changing anything. It boils down to $$$. I have the 3.9 already with around 35k miles on it sitting in the garage. I am planning on a cam with more torque, maybe a Isky cam, new lifters, main bearing etc..... This is all new to me so when I come across someone who has done it before I tend to pick they're brain for info.
The 3.9 is the only thing I can afford right now so need to make the best of it. The only time I wish for more power are headwinds and highway grades, basically anytime I drive Hwy 395 :angry So any power upgrade will be a bonus for me.
Do you belong to any Land Rover clubs? The So Cal Land Rover Club is heading up to Death Valley for it's 7 annual Rover Rendezvous on the 20th of April. Lots of trucks to check out and lots of fun trails. You should try and make it up there.

Kevin

[evilfij]

A 3.9 that has been overheated will likely have out of round bores and a much higher potential for a dropped liner.

Get a used block and build you motor and then swap it to your truck. The 3.9 short block is likely junk if you cooked it.

[cgalpin]

Ok, so I talked to D&D. I don't think the pricing is as good as Peter says, but not bad. I haven't done too much price shopping, but the D&D prices are certainly less than AB, and the machining prices are better than anything local too. I'd rather use a single shop for both the parts and the machining that deals with these motors and has a good reputation. It seems my options going with this approach looks like

a) Spend about $950 to be able to replace the camshaft/lifters/rocker assembly (reman), timing chain and gears, and the head gasket, head bolts. This includes a complete overhaul gasket set as its cheaper than piece mealing it.
b) Add $450 if I need a timing chain cover if the oil pump is bad or I am worried it might be or go bad later.
c) Add $400 and he'd rebuild the heads
d) Add $1500 for a rebuilt short block 4.x (not sure exactly yet - need opinions, but I'd get a different cam now too to take advantage of the 4L and rebuilt heads)

So, being that i'd be in past 50% if I just wanted to do what seemed necessary and right, I'm not opposed to go the whole hog and build up a complete rebuild for $3500 give or take. In for a penny, in for a pound. The net result would be the stronger block, and better performance from what others are saying, but I'd settle for better durability alone.

As far as time goes, I don't think the full rebuild would take that much longer than not replacing the block - were talking some motor mounts, flywheel and bellhousing and renting a engine puller. Easier to do the work out of the truck anyway no?

Comments?

[Neil McCauley]

LOL!! I have a 3.5 in there now. I want to keep the carburetor set up I have in there and with the 3.9 it's pretty simple to keep the carb without changing anything. It boils down to $$$. I have the 3.9 already with around 35k miles on it sitting in the garage. I am planning on a cam with more torque, maybe a Isky cam, new lifters, main bearing etc..... This is all new to me so when I come across someone who has done it before I tend to pick they're brain for info.
The 3.9 is the only thing I can afford right now so need to make the best of it. The only time I wish for more power are headwinds and highway grades, basically anytime I drive Hwy 395 :angry So any power upgrade will be a bonus for me.
Do you belong to any Land Rover clubs? The So Cal Land Rover Club is heading up to Death Valley for it's 7 annual Rover Rendezvous on the 20th of April. Lots of trucks to check out and lots of fun trails. You should try and make it up there.

KevinNahh I don't have time for offroading, just home to work and to costco every so often. haha I see Trevor Tarr of SCLR and his truck up and down Fremont & FairOaks sometimes. pm me and I"ll give you my cell, I'd like to see how you plan on biulding this 3.9. I just permanently mounted a stainless steel magma grill on my series III bumper, if you buy some carne asada and we can test it out at your pad.

Neil

[evilfij]

a) Spend about $950 to be able to replace the camshaft/lifters/rocker assembly (reman), timing chain and gears, and the head gasket, head bolts. This includes a complete overhaul gasket set as its cheaper than piece mealing it.
b) Add $450 if I need a timing chain cover if the oil pump is bad or I am worried it might be or go bad later.
c) Add $400 and he'd rebuild the heads
d) Add $1500 for a rebuilt short block 4.x (not sure exactly yet - need opinions, but I'd get a different cam now too to take advantage of the 4L and rebuilt heads)"

a) the prices are a bit high, but within the range. DII rockers are cheap. Crower cam is cheap. Cloyes timing gears are cheap.

b) on the 3.9 non-serp the oil pump is rebuildable without the cover.

c) again, a little high. SKim them and valve job without a regrind is about $250 a pair here, or better yet just get some used 4.0 heads and do the valve job yourself which is free when you figure the seals come in the full gasket kit. The new style seals are much better.

d) a used 4.0 or 4.6 and new main bearings and cross seals should be fine. No need for a full rebuild.

[Neil McCauley]

a) Spend about $950 to be able to replace the camshaft/lifters/rocker assembly (reman), timing chain and gears, and the head gasket, head bolts. This includes a complete overhaul gasket set as its cheaper than piece mealing it.
b) Add $450 if I need a timing chain cover if the oil pump is bad or I am worried it might be or go bad later.
c) Add $400 and he'd rebuild the heads
d) Add $1500 for a rebuilt short block 4.x (not sure exactly yet - need opinions, but I'd get a different cam now too to take advantage of the 4L and rebuilt heads)"

a) the prices are a bit high, but within the range. DII rockers are cheap. Crower cam is cheap. Cloyes timing gears are cheap.

b) on the 3.9 non-serp the oil pump is rebuildable without the cover.

c) again, a little high. SKim them and valve job without a regrind is about $250 a pair here, or better yet just get some used 4.0 heads and do the valve job yourself which is free when you figure the seals come in the full gasket kit. The new style seals are much better.

d) a used 4.0 or 4.6 and new main bearings and cross seals should be fine. No need for a full rebuild.



Ron, in the 3.9 timing cover, theres a pump gear inside the cover, isn't that part non-rebiuldable?

Neil

[Bowtracer]

It is rebuildable

[Davis]

I rebuilt mine.

[Robbie Donaldson]

Ron, in the 3.9 timing cover, theres a pump gear inside the cover, isn't that part non-rebiuldable?

Neil

i believe rebuildable on the non-serp motors - just two pieces/gears. on the serp engines, non-rebuildable gerotor thing that is in place in the front cover. just went through that with my 95 disco rebuild.

Charles, i have the 3.9 i just pulled from my disco sitting next to the truck if you want to rebuild that for cheap. i only pulled it because i needed to replace headgaskets and figured might as well go whole hog and replaced it with a 4.2, cam, timing gears, new hd motor mounts, etc. egine itself ran great and no overheating. i also bought all parts through D&D. i can pull up my receipts at home tonight if you want to compare. have an engine stand and engine lift sitting in my garage if you want to borrow as well. i should just be down the road from you off FFX Cty Parkway.

Follow-up Post:

oh, and Tony had mentioned it earlier, but there is a machine shop over in Falls Church, Allied Machine, that does most all the head work for the Rover shops/dealerships in the area. really good to work with. Not the cheapest prices, cost me around $400 for the heads to be rebuilt, but they are quick and do excellent work - 703-533-8355

i also took all my parts to be cleaned/dipped there. they are right off rt 7 past the 66 exit.

[Neil McCauley]

i believe rebuildable on the non-serp motors - just two pieces/gears. on the serp engines, non-rebuildable gerotor thing that is in place in the front cover. just went through that with my 95 disco rebuild.

Charles, i have the 3.9 i just pulled from my disco sitting next to the truck if you want to rebuild that for cheap. i only pulled it because i needed to replace headgaskets and figured might as well go whole hog and replaced it with a 4.2, cam, timing gears, new hd motor mounts, etc. egine itself ran great and no overheating. i also bought all parts through D&D. i can pull up my receipts at home tonight if you want to compare. have an engine stand and engine lift sitting in my garage if you want to borrow as well. i should just be down the road from you off FFX Cty Parkway.

Follow-up Post:

oh, and Tony had mentioned it earlier, but there is a machine shop over in Falls Church, Allied Machine, that does most all the head work for the Rover shops/dealerships in the area. really good to work with. Not the cheapest prices, cost me around $400 for the heads to be rebuilt, but they are quick and do excellent work - 703-533-8355

i also took all my parts to be cleaned/dipped there. they are right off rt 7 past the 66 exit.
When it comes to the timing cover on a 3.9, I believe you have to make sure the surface inside the pump thats actually part of the timing cover is not worn in from the gears. If it is, I believe you can't just put in new gears. It's good to know that I can re-use my timing cover, always cool to save a few bucks.

Neil

[Abrooks]

Robbie, did you finish the build up and installation?

[Robbie Donaldson]

build up and install yes :) but still haven't finished connecting all the hoses and electricals. a vacation got in the way last week and been busy painting baby room this week. will have some time Thurs and Fri night to work on it. hopefully have it running within the next 2 weeks.

here's a bunch of pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/39846924@N00/sets/72157594501387574/
don't have any of it sitting inside bolted up yet.

[cgalpin]

Charles, i have the 3.9 i just pulled from my disco sitting next to the truck if you want to rebuild that for cheap. i only pulled it because i needed to replace headgaskets and figured might as well go whole hog and replaced it with a 4.2, cam, timing gears, new hd motor mounts, etc. egine itself ran great and no overheating. i also bought all parts through D&D. i can pull up my receipts at home tonight if you want to compare. have an engine stand and engine lift sitting in my garage if you want to borrow as well. i should just be down the road from you off FFX Cty Parkway.


Robbie, I'd definitely like to compare prices and pick your brain about this. I'll PM you my info - please let me know when it's convenient for you. I'm not sure I want to stick to a 3.9 if I'm going to this much trouble as well though.

charles

[cgalpin]

Right now I'm leaning towards using D&D for all of it since there doesn't appear to be any benefit price wise to go local for the heads and at that point I might as well sole source all of it.

So, can anyone tell if the the blocks are different across the 4.0/4.2/4.6 line, or is all in the camshaft? What other specifics should I be asking for? I assume I should expect a rebuilt shortblock to include new main bearings, timing chain and sprokets, and a new camshaft correct (all assembled right)?

Is there anything rover specific or specific to a 3.9 -> 4.x conversion that I need to be aware about to tell D&D other than it sounds like there are timing cover differences?

thanks
charles

[LRover]

3.9 - 4.2 blocks are the same. 4.0 - 4.6 blocks are the same. You can use the 4.0 - 4.6 block in place of your 3.9 but the late model factory short block will not have a cam that will work with a distributor so you will need to change that. You will be able to use your original front cover etc.

[cgalpin]

Thanks Michael. Just to be clear, if I want to use my distributor (and I do), then I need to make sure I am getting a 4.2 block then correct?

thanks
charles

[MonLand]

4.0 - 4.6 blocks are the same.
Are you sure about this? I was told that the GEMS and BOSH setup was using a different block. The crank position sensor mounting hole is different for each setup?

Follow-up Post:

I need to make sure I am getting a 4.2 block
The advantage of the 4.0 over the 3.9 was that it was a stronger engine (cross bolted, someone said something like that here). But what's the advantage of going from the 3.9 to the 4.2 block?

[ECR]

Are you sure about this? I was told that the GEMS and BOSH setup was using a different block. The crank position sensor mounting hole is different for each setup?

There are flywheel sensor differences, but they can be changed out so that the a Bosche engine will work in a GEMS. We install Bosche long blocks in both GEMS and 14CUX cars all the time.
If you just think about the engine as a long block (use you existing timing cover, intake, etc), there is nothing that can not be easily overcome to install say a 1999 4.6 into a 1994 D90 or a 1996 GEMS 4.0 into a 1989 Range Rover, etc etc.

[pendy]

Dude I see some of your questions here. And I think we chatted on the phone.

My feelings on this are that you need to find someone to build this for you complete and just do the R&R yourself. I offered to help but there are may people in the community closer that I'm sure could help out. Your asking all the right questions but I see you going back and forth on the whole picture. It could save you a lot of grief and prolly some $ if you get someone with experience involved in the assembly of the engine. D&D has good points going for it. But the car world is different then our trucks. And they are not infallible. Nor am I.

JP

[Nomar]

Charles, if your truck is undriveable you could still have Will Tillery send a rollback for it. I think he got one down from NoVa for under $200. He knows the motors very well and drives a D-90 himself!
If this project is out of your scope, give him a call.

[cgalpin]

Dunno what to say about the wavering - I tend to do that when I'm faced with spending 60-80% of what the truck cost me just to repair it :)

I took my good friend Loic's advise and put it back together first. At a minimum it will allow me to get the tests done that should have been done before they tore it apart (compression, leakdown, maybe oil pressure?), and maybe allow me to have less downtime if/when I do a swap.

Anyway, I put it back together Saturday and took some video (mainly to get the audio) showing how it doesn't knock when cold, but starts knocking when it warms up. The knock isn't as loud as before, but is perhaps a little more regular and doesn't go away on acceleration all the time like it used to. I haven't driven it with the knock yet, but I just drove it a few miles this morning and no knocking (the ambient temp is pretty low today and I yanked the thermostat, so it never went to the midpoint on the gauge which is what I used to consider normal operating temp).

Anyway, the video is here if you are interested in hearing about it.

http://lhsw.com/gallery/engineRebuild

I am not sure why it happens when hot. I removed the thermostat (couldn't find a replacement locally) to make sure that water was flowing through the heads, but it still knocks. I did reproduce the problem I had the day the knock started, which was the reservoir cap started leaking. I replaced the cap and haven't had it happen again, but not 100% sure that was a problem, or a symptom of another issue.

And still not sure how bad it would be to drive it with this knock. Seems I have little to lose doing so.

charles

[Bowtracer]

sounds like valvetrain lifter or rocker
use a long screw driver as a stethescope to isolate where the noise is at its loudest

[Neil McCauley]

sounds like valvetrain lifter or rocker
use a long screw driver as a stethescope to isolate where the noise is at its loudestI agree, sounds like a lifter.

[cgalpin]

A lifter as opposed to a worn lobe on the cam? Any way to prove one way or the other? Can the lifters be replaced individually or should the set be replaced?

If it is a lifter, I assume giving something like sea foam a shot might help free it up? I am running some "mystery marvel oil" in it right now since I had to drain the oil (had lots of antifreeze dropped in when they dismantled).

Regarding the rockers, since I didn't take it apart I don't know if I put them back on the same side they came from, but I did clean them off a bit with gasoline (without dissasembly) and then lubricated and saw no obvious problems with them.

thanks
charles

[Neil McCauley]

A lifter as opposed to a worn lobe on the cam? Any way to prove one way or the other? Can the lifters be replaced individually or should the set be replaced?

If it is a lifter, I assume giving something like sea foam a shot might help free it up? I am running some "mystery marvel oil" in it right now since I had to drain the oil (had lots of antifreeze dropped in when they dismantled).

Regarding the rockers, since I didn't take it apart I don't know if I put them back on the same side they came from, but I did clean them off a bit with gasoline (without dissasembly) and then lubricated and saw no obvious problems with them.

thanks
charles It's better to change all the lifters, and if your going that far, than you might as well change the cam as well. Check out RPI's site on how to see if your cam is worn out.

[cgalpin]

I guess these photos show the camshaft condition fairly well. You can see the shiny edges and brown center on several lobes.

http://lhsw.com/gallery/album14/DSC01880
http://lhsw.com/gallery/album15/DSC01885

On the few lifters I inspected (only because they were out), I honestly didn't notice any rounding. I had assumed any problem with them would be some sort of internal failure/wear. Silly me. I should have taken more pictures too..

I will have some block tests done to make me confident this is not all for naught, and then go for a cam/timing chain & sprocket, lifter replacement. I'll have the boys over for a few beers and laughs if they are available. Had a lot of fun putting it together this weekend. I'm not sure how much more work it is to get the timing cover of, but with lots of careful cleaning it took me all day to just put the rocker assemblies, intake and valve covers back on :)

charles

[Stmpede]

Not my listing. Just for your consideration.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/land-rover-4-0-engine-discovery-range-rover-defender_W0QQitemZ150113199504QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3 3615QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[themaxx]

Not my listing. Just for your consideration.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/land-rover-4-0-engine-discovery-range-rover-defender_W0QQitemZ150113199504QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3 3615QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemSeems a bit pricey for a 4.0L.

[Stmpede]

I don't know what they normally go for, but it does have a new front cover, water pump, VCs and heads, so you don't have to pay for all those gaskets, head bolts, machine shop work etc. Probably about evens out I would think.

[ltwt88]

Just food for thought. I used to have a '95 RR with the 4.0. It started making that same noise. I too, thought that it was either the lifters and/or cam. A friend recommended I pull the pan and check the draw tube/screen for the oil. I did. And the screen was packed full of old sealant that had broken off from resealing the oil pan.
I then cleaned the draw tube out and thoroughly cleaned out the screen. Put everything back together. Filled her up with oil and some 'Restore' oil additive. She ran fine from then on. I sold her off about 6 months after all that happened. The guy I sold it to lives down the road and still drives it daily and told me there have been no problems. It happened back in 2002.
Your situation may be different, so, like I said, just food for thought.

[jaherring]

Eddie at West Coast Rovers has a brand new 3.9L long block for $2000.00, if anyone is interested. I just talked with him today about it looking for ideas on mine, which appears as though it may have a loose sleeve :-S

[Abrooks]

This thread is getting redundant -- you've got 3 options here: 1. Rebuild the top end with a cam, lifters, rebuilt flattened heads and some seals, pull the pan and check the pickup (though I just did mine with 88K and it was spotless) throw a timing set on it and hope for the best. You'll be out about $1000. Or, #2: buy a used block and hope it was maintained. If you don't perform #1 on that used, unknown 4.0 block after paying shipping on it and spending the time pulling your old block and dropping in the new one, you're crazy. If you go #2, don't throw good money after bad, go full tilt and put a built 4.6 and do 4 wheel burnies at will. This costs more. Option #3 is to drive it until it blows up and then go to option #2.

I'll work for beer.

[cgalpin]

I think option #0 is still open. Drop the pan and check the pickup, if that doesn't resolve it, take it to get a leakdown test to verify the block is ok, and also check oil pressure. I have one car in the body shop right now so won't be working on my truck till later in the week. I'll let you know how the pickup looks - I did have the pan off recently when I replaced the transmission, so maybe i used too much RTV.

I have beer.

charles

[Bowtracer]

Charles I am with Tony!

[cgalpin]

Well, I am effectively on #3 right now until a) it breaks, or b) I get lucky and it's something stupid like the pickup clogged, or c) I establish what condition my engine really is in before making a decision. After getting burned by taking it to a shop and expecting them to do the right checks, I'd rather be sure before making another mistake. But yes the reality is that if I don't get lucky, I am most likely going to run her till she pukes and replace it with a motor built by someone who knows what they are doing :)

charles

[pendy]

A power balance test could be informative. Block off the IAC hose like you were setting the idle. Then remove every plug wire one at a time to determine which cylinders are making power and which are not. Try to use plug wire removal pliers if possible. A rpm gauge directly on the coil makes this easier to do. This can help you to find the mechanical problems later on. Leakdown test is a good idea as well.

Kudos to you for reassembling to continue with diagnosis.

JP

[Bowtracer]

Jim did you listen to the vid????

[pendy]

No. I will now.

JP

Follow-up Post:

Sounds like low oil pressure even when it is cold. Its doing camage to run it like that. Duh.... Maybe a bad cam bearing or dirty oil circuit causing low oil pressure to the top end. Pulling the pan is a good idea.

It may sound crazy but this is what I would do. Pull the pan. Look for problems. Note any.

Remove the pickup tube from the block. Use an air nozzle to pressurize the oil circuit. Look for the main leak that is causing low oil pressure to the top end. Bad main bearing. Bad Cam bearing, Bad rod bearing etc... If nothing shows up remove the rockers and pressurize to comfirm blockage to the top end. And maybe use cleaning fluids and devices to free up the oil circuit to the top end.

But my bet is an internal oil pressure leak lowering oil pressure to the top end.

JP

Try to save it.

[jaherring]

I had some top end noise once - it ended up being a seized lifter. That lifter ground down the lobe on my cam to nearly round, at which point the noise got much worse and it was understandably no longer firing on that particular cylinder.

New cam/lifters fixed it right up. The cam bearings weren't showing any copper.

I have had the misfortune of experiencing nearly everything which can fail on this truck, FYI. I said *nearly*, as I'm still experiencing new and exciting disasters, such as my current maybe-cracked-block-or-slipped-liner dilema.

[cgalpin]

I've already decided I don't trust this engine, and it's replacement is in the works (thanks Pendy). But I'd still like to better understand what's wrong with mine. I drilled a hole in the oil pressure sender and tapped a thread to match a oil pressure sender I bought at pep boys. I hooked it up and got the following readings:

Cold: Idles and about 30 psi, went up to about 35psi on the road.

Hot: Idles at about 20 psi (maybe 19), and ran about 30 on the road.

From what I have read here this seems pretty good, although I don't know if these gauges are reliable or need calibrated somehow. Maybe I'll get my friend Loic to try it on his truck as a reference :)

charles

[cgalpin]

Haven't gotten to compare pressure readings with Loic as he's out of town. I suspect the engine is fine and just needs a top end rebuild, but that will be another day or left to someone else. Anyone want to buy a 3.9 long block (will include the timing cover and all)? :)

Just to close out this thread, the replacement is going to take place on June 2nd.

http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?p=93831#post93831

charles