2nd grinding? Synchro?

[Burke]

I have started noticing a gear grind on shifts into 2nd. It usually occurs at a quick shift. I heard this might be a synchro problem? Is this a major ($) thing? Do I need to do something soon? My 90 is an early '94 with the r380 trans I think?
Thanks guys

[Glenn_Guinto]

Burke,

You can tell if it's a R380 if the reverse is in the conventional "all-the-way-to-the-right-down" position. If it isn't, then it's an LT77.

Regardless, I started developing that problem to in my 94 with R380. A few months ago, I read here that changing the fluid to Redline MTL will quiet down the syncros. I haven't tried it yet, but that's in my list of projects to do list. :)

[Berty]

This is a common problem with the R380. Do you find it improves when the box is warmed up?
If you are using ATF in the box try the MTF94 gear oil or a 5w/20 synthetic equivalent. This should improve matters considerably.
You will find though that quick changes & Land Rover gearboxes do not go hand in hand:rolleyes

Take it easy with the old girl & make the changes slow & deliberate & you'll probably find it'll run for ages like this

I would imagine a new R380 Stateside would be maximum bucks:eek: & you may end up with a new gearbox that changes gear the same as the old one.

Good luck.
p.s. Hopefully this is acceptable for a Newbies first effort?:embarress

Brett

[Mike Hippert]

Brett, that sound about right. Mine does the same thing every now and then when its cold. I added some Lucas oil additive stuff and it seems to have helped some. I never have a problem in the summer but in the winter I have to push a little harder to get it into gear.

[Berty]

Mike, nearly everyone I know with an R380 has problems changing into 2nd. A friend of mine had a new box under warranty on a new D90 CSW Td5. The new box was no better.

Another friend paid for a new box from Ashcrofts for his wifes 300Tdi Disco, again no better but he did end up with a good quality rebuilt box:tounge

My truck has been a bitch to change the last few days, we've had heavy (for the UK) snowfall & freezing temps. This is with MTF94 in the box.

As you say, summertime, no problems. I have always been sceptical of gearbox additives, if you find it helps though, that's great.

I would definitely recommend you change over to MTF94 or a 5w/20 fully synthetic next time you drop the oil on your truck. ATF is too thin for them. MTF94 is the specified oil from the factory now, you can get it from your main dealers or Texaco (they manufacture it) If not any good quality 5w/20 synth. e.g. Mobil 1, redline or whatever you can get hold of. It does make a real difference.

Best regards

Brett

[Mike Hippert]

Brett, the 75w is not too heavy? I ask because I have heard that if you use it it will not lubricate everything in the T-case all that well due to it being to thick. But then again I have also heard that it is not used due to the fact that it makes shifting harder in cold whether, although good synthetic will be fine down to very cold temps.

Whats your location in the UK? I have a friend over hear who has only lived hear for about 2 years and grew up in the UK. One of his friends was just over here form the UK for a short stay.

[Berty]

Oops, My brain wasn't in gear!
I don't mean 75w for the main box. A popular alternative to MTF94 over here is MT75D marketed by Difflock. I got carried away by the the 75. The weight of oil for the main R380 should be 5W/20 fully synthetic.

I'll go back & edit my posts to remove any confusion.

Mike, I'm located in a tiny village on the East coast of England in the fine County of Norfolk. The Queen has a Home up the road in Sandringham. (not that I'm related mind you!)

Brett

p.s. Mike I've sent you a Private msg.

[jstrong98]

I was told by the PO of my 94 D-90 that the synchromesh trans needs to be taken into neutral from 1st gear before shifting to second. I just pull down out of first, let the lever come to neutral, then pull over and down into second. I have done this and so far no grinding. It took a little getting used to, having to make an extra move with the shift lever, but if it saves my gears its worth it.

Not sure where he got the info, but it works.

JS

[Art Vigil]

Jon,
What you do is called "double-clutching" and is very effective way to save wear on your synchros.
If you drive any manual transmission vehicle it's worth your while to learn this skill.
I was going to post a more detailed explanation but am feeling a bit lazy tonight.
If interested type "double clutching" into google, there are a bunch of great articles there. :)

[rover4x4]

5w20 gear oil? I have never seen that before???

[rover4x4]

and to add I thought the Redline ATF was highly reccomended? maybe i am wrong?? I am really confused now... is it ATF or gear oil in the R-380????

[evilfij]

Redline MTL, not ATF.

LRNA said ATF in trans but it is too thin to protect the synchros, MTL works great.

5w20 I am a bit sceptical of for several reasons:

1. Motor oils (generally) attach soft metals (like the synchros in R380s)
2. MTL is 5w 30 spec in motor oil and it is thinner than MT-94 (to my understanding), so 5w 20 would be too thin. Redline MT-4 (I think) is a thicker trans lube that is closer to a full gear lube spec.
3. Motor oil as a trans lube is common but I have never heard it recommended in an R380

Ron

PS my R380 is slow to second. Once you get used to it no biggy. I still have ATF in it as I have not gotton around to changing it and the AFT is only 3000 miles old.

[Berty]

Ron, you're correct. Don't use engine oil the 5w/20 I am referring to is a gear oil.
Check out this link.


difflock (http://www.difflock.com/cgi-bin/wm10/wm10_02606/st/ws20_9800/main/browse.cgi?final_pick=y&cust_cat=Oils+and+Fluids&cat_cat_max=&cust_id=50010014650&in_store=5001&cust_cat_index=19&pick_flag=y&setup_value=1&cleanup=n&item_id=DF247)

Go to Stores, Difflock Ltd>> Oils & Fluids & scroll down.
Or if you can't be bothered here are the specs.

This fully Synthetic Ovoline Gearbox Oil will transform the ease and speed of gearchanges on manual transmissions as well as reducing wear, lowering transmission temperatures and improving fuel consumption.

It is especially recomended as a far superior replacement for the ordinary, plain mineral ATF or semi synthetic MTF fluids found in Land Rover's LT77 and R380 5 speed manual gearboxes as fitted to Defenders, Discoveries and Range Rovers.

The advanced additives used within its leading edge formulation include a multifunctional viscosity index improver to impart maximum shear stability to the product and thereby protect moving parts and give outstanding low temperature performance (eliminating those notchy gearchanges on cold mornings).

Its ability to reduce frictional losses and both stress and wear, make it particularly beneficial to offroading or race and rally vehicles where transmissions are frequently pushed to their limits.

It is fully compatible with ATF or MTF fluids however its full benefits will only be achieved if as much as possible of the existing mineral oil is drained out and replaced with MT75D (Note you don't need to flush the box before using MT75D)

Fully Synthetic MT75D outlasts ordinary plain mineral ATF type fluids by 2 to 3 times, therefore drain intervals can be doubled if required.

Use this handy guide to fluids and capacities to work out your vehicle's needs (to the nearest Litre)

• All Land Rover, Range Rover & Discovery 5 speed Manual Gearboxes require 3 Litres of MT75D
• Range Rover Borg Warner Transfer Gearbox requires 2 Litres of MT75D

Note this oil is not best suited for use in very early 4 speed LT95 main gearboxes (fitted in 90/110s up to 1984) or 'Santana' LT85 5 speed gearboxes as fitted to early V8 petrol, 90 and 110 Land Rovers up to around 1989. If you have an LT95 or LT85 gearbox then we recommend you use our Trojan Fully Synthetic Gear Oil (Item code DF442)

Specifications (5W/20):

Allison C4
Ford M2C 138CJ
Ford M2C 166H
Ford M2C 186A
Ford Mercon
GM Dexron II-D
GM Dexron II-E


I was suggesting this oil as an alternative to the Dealer supplied MTF94. Check the customer reviews.
You should be able to find an equivalent in the US.
I personally use MTF94.

Brett

[evilfij]

Berty,

Thanks for clearing that up. I am still a bit wary of that difflock oil. The fact that it meets Dextron specs says it is an ATF weight formulation (which goes along with the 5w 20 rating). It sounds like a synthetic ATF, which is fine but IMO is too thin to prtect the synchros in an R380.

The way it is sold (prevents notchy gear changes when cold) indicates that they are sacraficing performance and protection for driveability. Not good in my opinion. If you want slick shifting when cold run a strait ATF, synthetic would even be slicker, but it does not cushion the synchros and I don''t feel that they last long term (warranty history on Lt77 and R380s in the US would seem to bear this out).

Best to go with the Redline MTL if you are in the US, or the LR spec MTF94 if you live elsewhere.

Ron

[rover4x4]

Ron what viscosity do you use?

[Berty]

Originally posted by evilfij
I am still a bit wary of that difflock oil. The fact that it meets Dextron specs says it is an ATF weight formulation (which goes along with the 5w 20 rating). It sounds like a synthetic ATF, which is fine but IMO is too thin to prtect the synchros in an R380.
Ron

I prefer to use the MTF94 for these reasons, although I'm sure the Difflock oil would still be an improvement over standard ATF.
The people in the UK using it seem very happy with the shift improvements (I do know people personally using it) although they'd probably be just a happy with MTF94 or Redlines MTL.

Cheers

Brett

p.s. I Don't work for Difflock:embarress

[rover4x4]

:confused

[1of40]

Guys, how do you find this stuff? I've stopped by a couple different transmission shops today and asked if they can get MT75D, or MTF94 and I get crazy looks. I know the folks in the UK (Difflock.com) are high on MT75, but I have no idea how to find the stuff here in the US and imagine shipping a case from the UK is pretty expensive.

Clay

[Mike Hippert]

Well I checked out Redline's website http://www.redlineoil.com/ and looked up dealers near you http://www.redlineoil.com/dealers_results.asp?zip=20165&MaxDistance=25&submit.x=11&submit.y=11 and it looks like Autozone or Advanced auto is the place to be. :grin I bought it at a local speed shop for mine. Worked great!

[1of40]

Thanks Mike. Advance Auto is everywhere around here so that'll be no problem. Are you using MTL, MT90, or the 75W90?

[flippedrover]

Clay there is a shop off the greenway in sterling that sells it. http://www.ogracing.com/ I bought a couple of quarts from them.

[Mike Hippert]

MTL! Shifts smoother now grinds less.

[sherpamike]

one more vote for redline MTL. I had some trouble shifting last winter and I would even grind through the first couple of gears on occaison during the summer. When it started getting cooler this fall, I ordered lots of redline synthetic products from an online distributer and replaced the diffs, tranny, and transfer box fluids. I highly recommend their stuff. The difference in shifting is huge. Make sure to read the articles on difflock.com. There are also some good posts here on the source from last fall....

[rover4x4]

REDLINE MTL !!!!!!!!!!!!!undefinedundefined

[1of40]

Thanks Everyone.

Tyler, I know the one you're talking about; it's the speed shop off 28. I'll check'em out on the way home.

Clay

[flippedrover]

No problem.