JK Wrangler VS. Defender

[Willh]

UK Magazine Article

Head to head comparison of the new Wrangler and the Defender. It's a good read, and I agree with most of the points made.

http://www.jeep.co.uk/jeep/pdf/wranglervsdefender.pdf


Enjoy. :)

Will H.

[Burke]

Wow, I am shocked at the margin in the test results. As a Defender and a JK owner, I can see many of their points, but come on... (Ok, I am a bit biased to my frst true love #158). I am also surprised at these results from a Sahara (which I have). I can't imagine if they had compared to a Rubicon... The new JK is leaps and bounds more refined and user friendly over the '06 TJ, yet still retains the "Jeepness" that you expect from a Wrangler. I just went on a 8 hour trip to NC last weekend in the Wrangler. Not nearly as road worthy or comfortable as even my old '95 Disco, but still not a bad drive. In the Defender you would have to rest up a week after a trip like that ;) In the end I really like my Jeep, and will probably drive it for a couple of years then trade it on something else, but I love my Defender and it's not going anywhere! And look at the price difference, 2K Euros!!! There would be a 110 in my garage no questions asked!

[JimC]

Interesting points certianly - can't really disagree with any of them. Though I'm really surprised that the Jeep has more space than the 110, especially with the internal cage.

Apples and oranges really though. The Defender is a barely-updated 25, nee 50, year old design with only the most begrudging concessions to modernity. It appeals to me because I enjoy driving an automotive anachronism and place being cool higher than being comfortable.

As a side note, I dont enjoy cars that don't have cool owners. The Miatas were great fun, but pretty mass-market. I never had an enjoyable conversation with anyone about any of my four Mustangs. The BMW's, with the right crowd (like on the big coupe groupe mailing list - gotta stay off roadfly.com) are great - the people are mostly cool geeks who enjoy hacking into light control modules and L-jetronic injection systems. Alfa Romeo people are mixed bag, but I've got some great friends in the Alfa community. However, the Defender people are by far the best of the bunch.

Why go through life with a honda or something similarly anonymous? I like meeting new cool people, and one of the best ways to do that is drive something recognizable and different.

A Jeep just wouldnt do it for me in that regard.

Now the choir can say "amen."

[Emerson00]

You do realize that's a slipper slope, right? That's why there's a RRC on blocks in my driveway, a wooden boat at a nearby boatyard (getting reframed), a Ducati in the garage, and a wooden kayak I built in the shop?

Dare to be different, yeah, but i think I need a 12-step program for an occasional return to reality. :)

[Overlander]

PTTHTHTHTH@!!!!##$@# BALDERDASH....

I don't care...I'm living the dream.

[lrnasd90]

Just glad that Jeep hasn't brought the Rubicon Diesel 4 door to US market or I might have a hard time driving past the dealership without stopping. I of course blame all this on LRNA because if they would just give me the choice there would be no choice for me. Despite all the bad things said about the Defender in the article I would be the first in line for a new Defender state side. One can dream, but if I was a gambling man I would say that we have a better shot at a Diesel Jeep Wrangler

[evilfij]

See the 37% v. 67% 3 year residual value.

[Overlander]

I just drove by a few JK's in traffic today, and there is NO WAY that they can claim more space than a 110. They are like 2/3rds the size of my 110. I don't get it. Some writer is on some manufacturers payroll.

[94Rover]

Notice the huge Jeep ad at the end of the article.

[Burke]

I just drove by a few JK's in traffic today, and there is NO WAY that they can claim more space than a 110. They are like 2/3rds the size of my 110. I don't get it. Some writer is on some manufacturers payroll.


I agree, I have driven a 110, and there is more interior room than my JK. JKs are larger inside than they look, but not that large. Not sure what they are thinking on that one :confused

[Ragland]

Car magazines just love anything trendy, lower, and more comfortable.

For years they bitched and moaned when driving anything with a straight axle - bad for the slalom test. Off road testing was a quick run through the open lot next to the editorial offices. And woe the 4x4 lacking large radio buttons. What is it about large, easy to read buttons on a dashboard for automotive writers? One might think they should all be in assisted living. Some folks actually liked the old BMW dash with lots of small buttons, not idrive. I digress...

I really believe magazines played a part in why trucks are so bad now.

[rovertrader]

This is a toughy. I agree w/ Cheney. I raced Porches in the 80's, and it was a hairy game- tail wagging the dog, but when driven well, great results. Loss of concentration for a nanosecond- potential death, and NEVER hit the brakes when the suspension was loaded. But what a cool factor- especially in action/motion. Anybody could drive a Vette fast. I have a TJ that has waaay too much $$ spent on it, but it is a rock crawler like no Defender can be- mainly due to about a 1500# advantage. However, the stable will probably never be without a Defender. When it is all said and done, if you had to live/work/play offroad the majority of the time, the Defender is there for you with an unbelievable service life. The perfect Expedition vehicle. If you commute for a living, drive lots of miles, or need/want a 4-door soft top for family wheeling/exploring, the JK is near impossible to beat. Lastly, I agree w/ the article- the Defender gives the illusion of more room- airy, but the JK is a tad bigger and better utilized. My two cents, having owned Defenders for the past 14 years this month, and lots of 3k mile trips in them- try driving a 110 2.5 NAD cross country.....more than once. Cheers.

[WhiteD90]

I have a TJ that has waaay too much $$ spent on it, but it is a rock crawler like no Defender can be- mainly due to about a 1500# advantage.

There is a white defender in my garage that begs to differ and is willing to take on that challenge.

Tis

See you in Las Cruces? ;)

[cgalpin]

I see them as different animals. I'd buy an unlimited if they offered it in diesel (and the half doors) but it would never replace a rover (i think of it more as a fun minivan).

I found it amusing they didn't rate how many cup holders, but just that they were in the front and/or rear - that's usually a benchmark, lol. Obviously the defender failed miserably there with none in the rear.

But obviously everyone doesn't think like. To me, my old POS '84 110 isn't missing a single luxury other than intermittent wipers and a couple of cup holders up front (both easily solved). To others it's as spartan as it gets.

charles

[Cirbo]

I have a TJ that has waaay too much $$ spent on it, but it is a rock crawler like no Defender can be- mainly due to about a 1500# advantage.

There is a white defender in my garage that begs to differ and is willing to take on that challenge.

Tis

See you in Las Cruces? ;)

I've seen that white Defender spank purpose built buggies on some of the toughest trails east of the Mississippi. I'd bank my dollars on it (and it's driver) any day. Y'all would have enjoyed the show.

Go ahead, buy the TJ or build the JK..

(for Cheney) - AMEN!

[rovertrader]

Sadly, I am off early tomorrow to drive to NY to pick up a tropical roof for a Series 109, in a Ford truck, as neither the Jeep nor the Defender are up to the task to carry a 5' x 9' piece a total of 1500 miles in two days. I suppose the 110 could pull it off, but the back couldn't stand it.

As far as the Cruces Challenge- should we drive the trail rigs there and back for a total test? Wasn't that the jest of the article- all around best ?

Tis- I'll decide by Sunday- does that work for the mass entry mailing?

[Willh]

I just found it be an interesting article that I thought some folks here might enjoy. Having owned 3 D-90's and now a JK Rubicon, I can see and agree with many of the points made in the article. And I obviously have to agree with Cheney on the count that even though I don't currently own a Defender, the friends I've made over the years with Defenders and other Land Rovers have kept me in this community. It is a unique group of people. My decision to with a JK was not taken lightly, but it does a lot of things that I couldn't get or afford to get out of a Defender, ie. four door convertible, and under warranty no less.
There is no doubt that a heavily modified Defender such as Jonathan's, or a Jeep such as Dale's can do some pretty amazing things. But, like when the Defender debuted in the states in '94, box stock you couldn't get a better off-roader. It's been 10 years since the last new Defender hit our shores, and Jeep still seems to be aware of what folks like ourselves really want. On the other hand, Land Rover has turned upstream, aiming for customer's that like the idea of adventure and exploration, but really have no intention of pursuing it. Box stock, for a new SUV, the Wrangler is the best thing going. But, it still doesn't keep me from wanting to have a Defender in the garage too.

Will H. :)

[rovertrader]

in other words, a JK Rubicon, or an LR3 in todays world....

[Buckon37s]

I have a TJ that has waaay too much $$ spent on it, but it is a rock crawler like no Defender can be- mainly due to about a 1500# advantage.

There is a white defender in my garage that begs to differ and is willing to take on that challenge.

Tis

See you in Las Cruces? ;)

How do I get in on this? This Jeep better have 42's and rocks or better. Lets see this machine!! Hammers?

Tiz, you still coming this way?

[Willh]

Dale's Website

www.theroverbarn.com

Dale's TJ

http://www.theroverbarn.com/2006_TJ_Unlimited.htm

He has the list of specs. :)

Will H.

[Buckon37s]

Dale's Website

www.theroverbarn.com

Dale's TJ

http://www.theroverbarn.com/2006_TJ_Unlimited.htm

He has the list of specs. :)

Will H.

It's really nice! But I know at least 4 Defenders that could spank that hard.

[WhiteD90]

Sadly, I am off early tomorrow to drive to NY to pick up a tropical roof for a Series 109, in a Ford truck, as neither the Jeep nor the Defender are up to the task to carry a 5' x 9' piece a total of 1500 miles in two days. I suppose the 110 could pull it off, but the back couldn't stand it.

As far as the Cruces Challenge- should we drive the trail rigs there and back for a total test? Wasn't that the jest of the article- all around best ?

Tis- I'll decide by Sunday- does that work for the mass entry mailing?

Of course in a thread titled JK vs Defender it is going to bring out passionate people's perspective given whichever side of the line in the sand they stand on.

We could drive our rigs to Cruces and see...but when we got back the 48 hour round trip would be subject to my opinion of comfort vs your opinion of comfort in our respective vehicles on the highway. Trail performance would probably speak for itself. As a result I trailer, not because I don't like driving my 90 on the highway, but mainly because it is traveling in comfort regardless of JK or Defender, and mainly so if I break something 2000 miles away I don't have to worry obout fixing it to get home. I believe you prefer trailering for the same reasons. Although not a JK, I have driven a Wrangler from LA to Chapel Hill, NC in 48 straight hours to make it back in time for fall semester when I was in college...35s, lift, lockers, ect. Was it comfortable, not Mercedes comfy, but not bad. On the other hand I used to drive my white 90 from GA to Moab or Colorado for the Natl rally. The last time I did that I drove it straight out to Moab wheeled for a week, the last day ran Upper Helldorado, broke an axle, fixed it with some help from the Kansas crew so I could hit the road in time, and drove straight home. That was about the time I decided trailering was a good idea. I'd say between my cross country highway experiences in those vehicles the comfort factor boiled down to hard top vs soft top. The jeep had a removeable hard top and it was significantly quieter at speed that the flapping plastic windows on the defender soft top for 30 hours.

Back to the point, and Will hits it on the head. As much as I like vintage FJ40s and land rovers, Jeep and to some degree Toyota (selectable lockers) are the only companies producing a true off road vehicle stock out of the box. Most other companies seem more content with selling trendy vehicles that portray a certain image but leave alot to be desired on the trail.

One last note, just as in college, I did not read the article but winged my way through this discussion based on responses and my own personal experiences.

Tis

[Burke]

You know, a lot of us put Jeep down and do the whole J**P thing etc. I used to as well. I actually felt guilty buying my JK, like I was cheating on my 90 or something;) But Will is right, what other "new" vehicle under warranty is offered in the US that gives you the off road ability (whatever your opinion on it is, it's better than most), soft top, car seats, luggage space, and highway manners that lets you take an 8 hour trip in relative comfort? Auto makers are getting soft on "off road vehicles", and I applaud Jeep for still offering a true trail vehicle with no top and removable doors in todays PC world. I am and always will be a Rover guy, but until that mythical "new Defender" hits our shores, I have what I feel like is the next best thing...

[Ragland]

Somewhat related to this conversation, remember the proposed "lifestyle" Defender - a mainstream vehicle marketed for the US and western countries while the real Defender went to RoW nations and commericial/military use? The truck would be less costly to produce as it would benefit from an assembly process where more robots and less people were needed. The project was shelved for lack of money and perceived need.

I believe the lifestyle Defender was to have IFS and an automotive journalist-loving comfy ride, cushy interior, and big dashboard buttons and switches. There is little doubt in my mind today's Jeep Rubicon would walk all over this vehicle had it made into production. The two would be competing head to head today.

[Buckon37s]

I like Jeeps. I wheel with them almost every trip. Stock to stock they are better offroad, and much easier to build. Plus, there arn't a lot of LR's that go where we do. But that doesn't change the fact that a build D can take down a built Jeep, expecially a 4WPW super glue Jeep.

That said, when you get to a cirtain level of build, a built anything can outperform a built anything. Now I'm way off topic...

[tkavan01]

I like Jeeps. I wheel with them almost every trip. Stock to stock they are better offroad, and much easier to build. Plus, there arn't a lot of LR's that go where we do. But that doesn't change the fact that a build D can take down a built Jeep, expecially a 4WPW super glue Jeep.

That said, when you get to a cirtain level of build, a built anything can outperform a built anything. Now I'm way off topic...haha, as i was reading your comment i was thinking to myself where do you draw the line from modified jeep. defender into custom built wheeling machine! Of course your is over the line... I like the defender, i can't wait to start moding it up some so i can take on my bro's jeep, which right now will smack me around up and down the trail...

[Willh]

I actually felt guilty buying my JK, like I was cheating on my 90 or something;)


I can completely empathize with you. I agonized about it. Luckily, my rover friends have cut me some slack when we're out wheelin' and I'm the black sheep of the bunch. Nothing more than the usual ribbing, and it's all in good fun. But on the other hand, let me also say, that a few of my rover friends, having seen what the new JK can do, are now also JK owners. ;)

Will H.

[cgalpin]

And the Chrysler lifetime warranty looks awesome!

http://www.jeep.com/en/lifetime_powertrain_warranty/

[oldscratchggf]

You know, a lot of us put Jeep down and do the whole J**P thing etc. I used to as well. I actually felt guilty buying my JK, like I was cheating on my 90 or something;).... I am and always will be a Rover guy, but until that mythical "new Defender" hits our shores, I have what I feel like is the next best thing...

I think it is understood that putting down Jeeps around here is more or less all in good fun. The only time I ever seriously put down a Jeep is when you get some guy with a shit eating grin on his face in a straight-out-of-4Wheel Parts lifted Jeep that has clearly never seen dirt talking about how his jeep could spank any "frail British piece of shit out there" (yes, I am thinking of one person in particular, but unfortunately, we all know that there are a lot of kids in lifted Jeeps out there that think they're the shit... not to say all jeep owners, obviously, but I think we all know the kind i'm talking about).

fact of the matter is they are both good cars, both have their advantages. Jeeps are for some people, Land Rovers are for others, just as some people favor Mercedes, some people favor BMW, Ford v. Chevy, etc etc

[Buckon37s]

haha, as i was reading your comment i was thinking to myself where do you draw the line from modified jeep. defender into custom built wheeling machine! Of course your is over the line... I like the defender, i can't wait to start moding it up some so i can take on my bro's jeep, which right now will smack me around up and down the trail...

But wait....

Am I actually over the line? I still have a completely stock rover drivetrain. 300tdi to R380 to LT. I still have a lot of frame too. I still have most of the body also. So there is a serious question to be asked, could you do this well in a Jeep with so much Jeep? Maybe not. You have to get 60's or 9's to go where we go in a Rover or a Jeep. But I don't know many Jeeps that have a stock t-case, or stock PS box. Is a Defender a better building platform? Hmmmmm???

[tkavan01]

But wait....

Am I actually over the line? I still have a completely stock rover drivetrain. 300tdi to R380 to LT. I still have a lot of frame too. I still have most of the body also. So there is a serious question to be asked, could you do this well in a Jeep with so much Jeep? Maybe not. You have to get 60's or 9's to go where we go in a Rover or a Jeep. But I don't know many Jeeps that have a stock t-case, or stock PS box. Is a Defender a better building platform? Hmmmmm???in my book your decidely over the line:)

[Buckon37s]

in my book your decidely over the line:)

Thanks! Wait till you see what I have in store.

[rover4x4]

well I have never seen any Defenders on 35" with a stock spare.


If "they" would make another like the Scrambler CJ8 I would buy one. Untill then I will continue to save for a 110 Hicap.

[cgalpin]

We talking about rock crawling only? You can do it with a 4 banger with the right gearing (even in the axles only) so I don't think the D90 beats the cheap any there.

Now if you want to compare how much your suspension and tires compare to stock, then I think you have a fair fight.

charles

[snuffer]

I didn't read the link from the first post...don't need to. I'd rather have a sister working in a whorehouse than a brother driving a Jeep!!!

[Willh]

JK's workin' for a living.

US Customs and Border Patrol
Pic 1 (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31169&d=1198380567)
Pic 2 (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31170&d=1198380567) Pic 3 (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31171&d=1198380567)

[rovertrader]

OK, let me digress. I didn't mean to get off Will's initial post- stock new D-110 vs. stock JK. I can't imagine being w/o a Defender or three.
Short story: We were wheeling a 30k mile D-90 at Paragon w/ a bunch of Jeeps a few years ago. The two realities hit home:
A) Why wheel a truck this valuable this hard?
B) The Jeeps are like a Gazelle on the rocks ( about 1 to 1.5K # lighter), while the Rovers are like Rhinos.
I sold that particular 90- after putting it back to stock, and sold most of the kit. That was to be the budget to build a street legal buggie to wheel or take the kids for ice cream. The budget got blown considerably, but the TJ is awesome- albeit only about 30% Jeep at this point.
All that said, I was stirring the pot- intentionally- and poking at Tis about driving to CC- although the Jeep still has a/c that works and is integrated to the dash, cruise, etc. Bottom line- a big departure from Will's intended- I assume- discussion. Sorry.
And yes, I have replaced the D-II family wheeler w/ a JK 4-door Rubicon w/ soft door tops, a 2" OME and 35's, bumpers and a winch. The rest is there from the factory, and warranted for life. But I can't give up my 110 just yet......

[AggieD90]

JK's workin' for a living.

US Customs and Border Patrol
Pic 1 (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31169&d=1198380567)
Pic 2 (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31170&d=1198380567) Pic 3 (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31171&d=1198380567)

Can't see em...I've been banned from the Dweb.

[Willh]

Here ya go.

Will H.

[Buckon37s]

OK, let me digress. I didn't mean to get off Will's initial post- stock new D-110 vs. stock JK. I can't imagine being w/o a Defender or three.
Short story: We were wheeling a 30k mile D-90 at Paragon w/ a bunch of Jeeps a few years ago. The two realities hit home:
A) Why wheel a truck this valuable this hard?
B) The Jeeps are like a Gazelle on the rocks ( about 1 to 1.5K # lighter), while the Rovers are like Rhinos.
I sold that particular 90- after putting it back to stock, and sold most of the kit. That was to be the budget to build a street legal buggie to wheel or take the kids for ice cream. The budget got blown considerably, but the TJ is awesome- albeit only about 30% Jeep at this point.
All that said, I was stirring the pot- intentionally- and poking at Tis about driving to CC- although the Jeep still has a/c that works and is integrated to the dash, cruise, etc. Bottom line- a big departure from Will's intended- I assume- discussion. Sorry.
And yes, I have replaced the D-II family wheeler w/ a JK 4-door Rubicon w/ soft door tops, a 2" OME and 35's, bumpers and a winch. The rest is there from the factory, and warranted for life. But I can't give up my 110 just yet......

Your so far off on weight its shocking. Your Jeep will tip the scales at near 5,000 LB or over. Jeeps are heavier than Defenders. And the anti-squat isn't even close. I crush most Jeeps in the rocks, but thats all I run.

And PS. You don't have a buggy.

[Ragland]

well I have never seen any Defenders on 35" with a stock spare.




Budweiser could do a "real men of genius" ad for that now classic look. While the chrome tube bar bumpers and nerf bars may no longer be the hot accessory rounding out the picture, the never-heard-of-them tires and ugly rims remain.

[DJ Menasco]

I like Jeeps. I wheel with them almost every trip. Stock to stock they are better offroad.....


Elaborate vile fiend!

What does a Jeep-assuming a non-Rubicon-yield out of the box that is superior to a Defender? I'm not very familiar with Jeep specs.

[Buckon37s]

Elaborate vile fiend!

What does a Jeep-assuming a non-Rubicon-yield out of the box that is superior to a Defender? I'm not very familiar with Jeep specs.

Ahh, you called me friend! Oops, nope, Fiend. Thats cool. Non Rubicon? Nothing really. Bone stock to Bone stock they are pretty evenly matched up. I would say the 6 cylinder Jeep motor is a better powerplant than the 3.9 or 4.0. Jeep has better departure angle. D has better suspension. Both have weak axles. D has better t-case. Almost identical wheelbase. I was mostly thinking of a Rubicon when I said they were better. And a Rubi will crush a D. But the D will have panties thrown at it, so........

[stevewhitaker]

Ahh, the old Jeep vs Land Rover arguments rage on. Very few magazine articles really test the vehicles stoutly, and even fewer reviewers know enough about suspensions, drivelines, frames, gearing, or design considarations to put forth truly informed and cogent opinions on the true strengths and weaknesses of the vehicles. The articles usually merely express the preconceived biases of the writer. My biases have long ago leaned toward favoring the Land Rover.

I have been waging this "war" for over 37 years, and have driven Land Rovers as well as Jeeps in all sorts of terrain. My experience has been that a stock Jeep will go just about anywhere that a stock Land Rover will go - - just not as often. The vast majority of Jeeps I have either driven or partnered with showed signs of terminal aging before the Land Rovers did. The Jeeps tended to start losing some vital components and becoming less and less reliable long before my Land Rover began needing some serious TLC. Of the 6 close friends I have had who owned Jeeps and went offroading with me, 4 of them decided to buy Land Rovers.

The new Jeeps are supposedly sporting stouter frames and better drivelines than their predecessors, and that may lessen the long-term differences between the two. I have not seen enough of the new Jeeps to say they are better or worse than the Defender - at least for the purpose I have mine (combination of traveling and some serious offroading). For now, I will stay with the Defender because I feel confident that I will normally "chicken out" in a situation before my Land Rover does. I have always respected Jeeps, as I do most of the people who go offroading with them. Hopefully they will feel the same way about my Land Rover.

[tkavan01]

Elaborate vile fiend!

What does a Jeep-assuming a non-Rubicon-yield out of the box that is superior to a Defender? I'm not very familiar with Jeep specs.why are you excluding the rubicons, sure a bone stock base model jeep will certainly be inferior to a much higher priced product.

[cgalpin]

My experience has been that a stock rubicon will get hung up on rocks far quicker than a stock D90 because they don't have that much clearance ootb, so even though they have lockers a D90 can get over the obstacle without lockers. And then you'd be a fool to do serious wheeling without the addition of a bunch of skids, a tummy tuck and a suspension upgrade to get better clearance anyway.

But even a D90 needs at least diff guards and preferably a steering guard or beefed up drag link and sliders if you don't want to cause damage, and costs more for both the starting point, and the upgrades :)

But I ask myself all the time why I wheel my D90 because it's a very expensive toy to abuse. Jeep's are way cheaper to get parts, upgrades, and accessories for. At some point my decision to drive rovers can no longer be logically described or justified, besides saying It's what I like :)

charles

[Buckon37s]

My experience has been that a stock rubicon will get hung up on rocks far quicker than a stock D90 because they don't have that much clearance ootb, so even though they have lockers a D90 can get over the obstacle without lockers. And then you'd be a fool to do serious wheeling without the addition of a bunch of skids, a tummy tuck and a suspension upgrade to get better clearance anyway.

But even a D90 needs at least diff guards and preferably a steering guard or beefed up drag link and sliders if you don't want to cause damage, and costs more for both the starting point, and the upgrades :)

But I ask myself all the time why I wheel my D90 because it's a very expensive toy to abuse. Jeep's are way cheaper to get parts, upgrades, and accessories for. At some point my decision to drive rovers can no longer be logically described or justified, besides saying It's what I like :)

charles

Wishful thinking. Rubicons can go on trails a stock Defender has no business being on. I don't like it, but you have to be honest. But Rubicon owners are almost worse than LR owners. :hmm

[rover4x4]

Theres no comparison. Lock up a Defender and put a 4:1 low gear in it.

[Emerson00]

Theres no comparison. Lock up a Defender and put a 4:1 low gear in it.
You mean so it could follow a Rubicon? That'd be a different way of saying stock-to-stock, the Rubi wins; it also costs less, is brand new, has a (great) warranty, and has no part sourcing cost/issues.

I get the Rover thing, I think... but the facts are that a Rubicon will follow or lead a D90 anywhere unless the jeep driver's a real dumbass.

[WhiteD90]

I have a TJ that has waaay too much $$ spent on it, but it is a rock crawler like no Defender can be- mainly due to about a 1500# advantage..


**disclaimer about this post, Dale and I are friends and this is nothing we wouldn't say to each other over a beer at dinner after being on the trail**

Since you "stirred the pot" can you please explain how this is the case when, to my knowledge, Uwharrie is the only place this defender eating jeep has been seen in action. Uwharrie is fun, but not exactly the place hard core rigs go to test their mettle. Theory is for the internet wheelers. :)

Regarding "wheeling a vehicle this valuable this hard". I agree that defenders can have high barriers to entry and therefore wheeling/building them for potentially damaging trails is not for everyone...you probably have the same $$ in your jeep that you could have easily had in a well build defender if not more. Ron's point about residual I think holds true here too.

To your point about Paragon, it was one trip, one park. I'll be the first to admit some vehicles simply perform better in certain terrain than others...if you are looking for the best vehicle for any and every condition/trail imaginable you might as well be looking for a unicorn. As for the defender as we know it being a rhino, they only similarities they share are their tough nature and dwindling numbers.

Weight, at times, is an advantage. Ever seen a defender get really cross axled? Does a light jeep in the same situation have the same contact pressure. It's been my experience that in technical rock crawling the opposite is true, weight is often a good thing. I've seen many jeeps or other light, short wheelbase vehicles struggle with off camber or angled climb ledges really struggle compared to some defenders mainly because they completely unweight the front end (especially given the spring lift you generally have to go to in order to run a decent sized tire on a jeep). I see the exception to weight being in the unlimited class rock crawling series where lightweight buggies have to get over two story vertical walls and if they flip over the spotter/driver has to right them and keep going. Dry, steep rock waterfalls are the other exception where light and long really pay off.

I'm glad you are going to Las Cruces, you and your vehicle will be challenged and that is why we like to build them and wheel them.

Finally, this really has little to do with the orginial article comparison but I'd compare your quote about your jeep on a defender board to that of a late hit on a quarterback right in front of his bench...expect backlash buddy! :)

Tis

[Buckon37s]

Weight, at times, is an advantage. Ever seen a defender get really cross axled? Does a light jeep in the same situation have the same contact pressure.
Tis

Defender 90 SW Curb Weight: 3,560 LB
Jeep Soft Top Curb Weight: 3,407 LB
Wrangler Unlimited Curb Weight: 3,694 LB
Defender 110 Curb Weight: 3,913 LB

POI: These numbers are the most common on the internet, so if innacuracies exist, sorry.

So this talk of weight advantage is completely false. Especially considering that the Jeep in question starts out with a 140LB DISADVANTAGE and then has at least 1000 LB of 4WPW bolted to it (probably more). My Defender is lighter than 90% of the Jeeps I wheel with.

[cgalpin]

Wishful thinking. Rubicons can go on trails a stock Defender has no business being on. I don't like it, but you have to be honest. But Rubicon owners are almost worse than LR owners. :hmm

I said experience, not thinking. I guess all the Rubicon owners I've wheeled with can't drive then :)

[Buckon37s]

I said experience, not thinking. I guess all the Rubicon owners I've wheeled with can't drive then :)

Defender 90 Ground Clearance: 9in
Rubicon Ground Clearance: 10in

Defender Breakover: 34 Degrees
Rubicon Breakover: 28 Degrees

So the defender has an advantage in breakover of 6 degrees and a big disadvantage in axle clearance. So is 6 degrees enough to make up for Lockers front and Rear? No way. Maybe you do only wheel with terrible drivers. :)

But you do have a point that there is a lot of stuff under a Jeep that snags things. Of course, LR's have those retarded dumbo ears that hold the rear links to the frame.

All joking aside, I am not on the Jeep's side at all. I am just trying to be as accurate as possible.

When I first had my truck it was on 32's and otherwise totally stock. I was able to outperform a TJ on 35's with a rear locker. What does that mean? Nothing. I got lucky. What were we talking about again?

[cgalpin]

Yes I am saying they have lots of stuff that hangs low and gets caught up on things whereas most of it is tucked under the frame on the D90 despite whatever the published numbers are.

You reminded me that my comparison is biased in that I do have a 2" lift and almost 33" tires, so I'm not comparing a "stock" D90 which I guess is unfair (but were not talking huge mods here). I guess I'm out of line here.

Anyway who cares :) I happen to wheel more with Jeeps than Rovers and they are all fine by me as long as they are wheeling them!

charles

[DJ Menasco]

Ahh, you called me friend! Oops, nope, Fiend. Thats cool. Non Rubicon? Nothing really. Bone stock to Bone stock they are pretty evenly matched up. I would say the 6 cylinder Jeep motor is a better powerplant than the 3.9 or 4.0. Jeep has better departure angle. D has better suspension. Both have weak axles. D has better t-case. Almost identical wheelbase. I was mostly thinking of a Rubicon when I said they were better. And a Rubi will crush a D. But the D will have panties thrown at it, so........

I thought that might be what you were referring to - the Rubicon. I didn't t think a plane-Jane Jeep would be able to surpass a similar D90. In fact I've alway surmised that a Defender would be able to edge out a Jeep, that is as long as it wasn't a Rubicon. By the way, what spline axles do Jeeps have?

So tell me, know that your Defender lacks a windshield what do you do to prevent panties ending up in your face? It must make driving a bit more challenging.

DJ

[Buckon37s]

I thought that might be what you were referring to - the Rubicon. I didn't t think a plane-Jane Jeep would be able to surpass a similar D90. In fact I've alway surmised that a Defender would be able to edge out a Jeep, that is as long as it wasn't a Rubicon. By the way, what spline axles do Jeeps have?

So tell me, know that your Defender lacks a windshield what do you do to prevent panties ending up in your face? It must make driving a bit more challenging.

DJ

The spline count in a Dana 30? Who cares, they are made out of whiddled wood. They are even weaker than stock D-90 stuff.

And I removed the windshield only for that reason. :naughty

[DJ Menasco]

The spline count in a Dana 30? Who cares, they are made out of whiddled wood.

LOL

I love your anctedotes Buck. Direct & Succinct.

[WhiteD90]

Defender 90 SW Curb Weight: 3,560 LB
Jeep Soft Top Curb Weight: 3,407 LB
Wrangler Unlimited Curb Weight: 3,694 LB
Defender 110 Curb Weight: 3,913 LB

POI: These numbers are the most common on the internet, so if innacuracies exist, sorry.

So this talk of weight advantage is completely false. Especially considering that the Jeep in question starts out with a 140LB DISADVANTAGE and then has at least 1000 LB of 4WPW bolted to it (probably more). My Defender is lighter than 90% of the Jeeps I wheel with.


Numbers posted on a thread here about D90 weight in which you indicated you thought these numbers were on the low side.

Per the '97 Owners Manual, page 128:

Soft Top: 3,768 lbs

SW: 3,902 lbs


For a two door TJ my www shows numbers in the low #3400s and creep up from there with the unlimited and 4 door unlimited. I still think the defenders are heavier, maybe I can convince Dale to stop at a weight station and we can get a comparison between my rig and his. The one thing you did bring to light is that jeeps are getting heavier...but most of the jeeps I see or wheel with are still older vehicles that are in the low 3k range(curb) vs high 3k for a D90(curb). Add the bolt on or mod bulk and they start getting portly. If nothing else, I think we agree that the #1500 difference claimed is probably not accurate.

Don't think I'm making it out to the Hammers prior to Las Cruces this year but I do want to get out there and wheel with you. I hope everything goes well with the birth of your second child, and maybe we can catch up at Cruces in 09...or Moab this Sept?

Tis

[Buckon37s]

Numbers posted on a thread here about D90 weight in which you indicated you thought these numbers were on the low side.

Per the '97 Owners Manual, page 128:

Soft Top: 3,768 lbs

SW: 3,902 lbs


For a two door TJ my www shows numbers in the low #3400s and creep up from there with the unlimited and 4 door unlimited. I still think the defenders are heavier, maybe I can convince Dale to stop at a weight station and we can get a comparison between my rig and his. The one thing you did bring to light is that jeeps are getting heavier...but most of the jeeps I see or wheel with are still older vehicles that are in the low 3k range(curb) vs high 3k for a D90(curb). Add the bolt on or mod bulk and they start getting portly. If nothing else, I think we agree that the #1500 difference claimed is probably not accurate.

Don't think I'm making it out to the Hammers prior to Las Cruces this year but I do want to get out there and wheel with you. I hope everything goes well with the birth of your second child, and maybe we can catch up at Cruces in 09...or Moab this Sept?

Tis

Thanks so much Tis. Anytime you can make it, I will take a few days off work and we can do a King of the Hammers tour and hit everything. I noticed when I was searching for weight on the computer that there were numbers all over the place. Thats why I used the most common and put a little disclaimer on there. That said, even taking the worse case numbers you can find, Dale started with a truck that weighed 70lb less than yours and then bolted almost everything he could find to it.

Also, when people tell you they have a truck weighing in the Low 3k's, 99% of the time their just plain wrong. I am constantly amazed how wrong people are. Everybody under-shoots. Most Jeeps you see rolling around on decent rubber (37-42) weight over 5k. Even tube buggies will end up in the 3,400 to 3,600 LB range.

I have wanted to get under 4k for my truck and I had to get rid of nearly everything in order to do it. Anyway, 1,500 like you said is nuts. I will put $$ on it weighing over 5k.

Cheers buddy.

Edit: One advantage a Jeep has is that a lot of the weight is in the body so when you start cutting things away, you can make a dent in the overall weight. When you cut a Defender apart, you lighten it very little. But, it also shows where all the weight on a D is, and why they are so stable for being so tall.

[Willh]

Edit: One advantage a Jeep has is that a lot of the weight is in the body so when you start cutting things away, you can make a dent in the overall weight. When you cut a Defender apart, you lighten it very little. But, it also shows where all the weight on a D is, and why they are so stable for being so tall.


Wouldn't apply in Dale's case, as his entire tub has been plated with steel armor. I agree it is most certainly heavier than it was stock.

Will H.

[WhiteD90]

Wouldn't apply in Dale's case, as his entire tub has been plated with steel armor. I agree it is most certainly heavier than it was stock.

Will H.

You mean armor sort of like a Rhino has? :)

[Buckon37s]

Wouldn't apply in Dale's case, as his entire tub has been plated with steel armor. I agree it is most certainly heavier than it was stock.

Will H.

That, and he hasn't cut anything away. :)

[Buckon37s]

Okay,

Bringing back an old thread. Surely thee has been enough time to weight this beast. SOOOO,
how much does it weight? My guess, 5,000 lb with a half tank of gas.

[redhummer96]

The spline count in a Dana 30? Who cares, they are made out of whiddled wood. They are even weaker than stock D-90 stuff.

And I removed the windshield only for that reason. :naughty
Just as an FYI, the Rubicon has Dana 44 axles .

[Willh]

Okay,

Bringing back an old thread. Surely thee has been enough time to weight this beast. SOOOO,
how much does it weight? My guess, 5,000 lb with a half tank of gas.


Buck,

Dale sold the TJ back a couple of months ago. It now resides with it's new owner in Colorado. He does have a new Jeep though.... :)

Will H.

[Buckon37s]

Just as an FYI, the Rubicon has Dana 44 axles .

We weren't talking about the Rubicon there.

Follow-up Post:

Buck,

Dale sold the TJ back a couple of months ago. It now resides with it's new owner in Colorado. He does have a new Jeep though.... :)

Will H.

Crap! This was a well set up SMACK!

[WhiteD90]

We weren't talking about the Rubicon there.

Follow-up Post:



Crap! This was a well set up SMACK!


Dave, this vehicle mysteriously disappeared and did not make Las Cruces or the "weigh in" shortly after the mighty proclomations over a defender...interesting I think.

[Buckon37s]

Dave, this vehicle mysteriously disappeared and did not make Las Cruces or the "weigh in" shortly after the mighty proclomations over a defender...interesting I think.

:hmm

[rovertrader]

No mystery really, just sold it to a new owner a couple months ago in Co. who was looking for something extreme and reliable to use a couple times a month in Moab, and is very, very well pleased. Rag on....... In all honesty, it was less "Jeep" than Tis' D-90 is Defender, so the whole discussion/debate is for naught.
The only honest comparison is the one Will started the thread with- stock vs. stock. I just wanted to invoke some harmless 'poking', but as is usually the case, it gets a little outta hand.
There is no "one best" as we all know- whether driver or machine is concerned.

[WhiteD90]

No mystery really, just sold it to a new owner a couple months ago in Co. who was looking for something extreme and reliable to use a couple times a month in Moab, and is very, very well pleased. Rag on....... In all honesty, it was less "Jeep" than Tis' D-90 is Defender, so the whole discussion/debate is for naught.
The only honest comparison is the one Will started the thread with- stock vs. stock. I just wanted to invoke some harmless 'poking', but as is usually the case, it gets a little outta hand.
There is no "one best" as we all know- whether driver or machine is concerned.

Glad it is getting used now.

Nothing out of hand and not ragging, just a few people "poking" holes in a fairly unsubstantiated statement since no quantifiable numbers were provided as support and no "extreme" trail time was accumulated since this vehicle's inception.

FWIW- I did recently ride in a new 4dr that was running 37s with minimal mods to get it there. It was actually pretty sweet from several perspectives.

[Cirbo]

Yeah, that NAV system was the shnitz! LOL

[evilfij]

I like the four banger 1997 TJ I have.

2k sure beats 20k I would have paid for a 1997 D90. 20mpg. 27in tires (205 75 R16)

[Davis]

I have seen some mighty well made up jeeps. I think some are a work of engineering art--but NOT a thing of beauty. Put the same suspension under a 90 or 110 and I would think it is truly art. Same said for an FJ40 or FJ42. And it has everything to do with numbers and class--I like the exotic which means not commonplace. Some jeeps I have seen in England are met with similar response as 90's get here...except they are a LOT cheaper to import! ;-)

Stock versus Stock, I think Toyota has it over Land Rover. Oooops, out of the bag. But, and I think most of you will agree, NOTHING BEATS A LR!

[Cirbo]

It all boils down to resale. What have you got invested? What can you sell it for?

FJ's and Defenders will win that one.

[Buckon37s]

No mystery really, just sold it to a new owner a couple months ago in Co. who was looking for something extreme and reliable to use a couple times a month in Moab, and is very, very well pleased. Rag on....... In all honesty, it was less "Jeep" than Tis' D-90 is Defender, so the whole discussion/debate is for naught.
The only honest comparison is the one Will started the thread with- stock vs. stock. I just wanted to invoke some harmless 'poking', but as is usually the case, it gets a little outta hand.
There is no "one best" as we all know- whether driver or machine is concerned.

It was your comment about weight that was so far off you had to be called on it. The right play would have been to weight it before you sold it.