Defender Returns to North America Merged Threadfest

[rover1]

Check this out,
At the Ford booth at SEMA they have the Defender 11O, are they coming back into the US? The badge is 501/500, looks like Rover Accessories is involved. Anyone know if Land Rover is selling Defenders in the US again?
Here is a pic and it is a diesel….

Is Land Rover finally bringing back my dream vehicle? ………

[rover4x4]

probally not

[pcarey]

If you do a quick search, you will see RA's "FlyFish" D110 model from last year's show, built from the ground up. No sign of it returning.

pwc

[dmarchand]

Don't get your hopes up.

But this fellow did a nice job on a write up about that particular rig.

http://www.tawayama.com/gear/defenderckd.html


And Here is the actual release (taken from our friends on POR):

LAS VEGAS, Nevada, November 4, 2003 – Land Rover North America is displaying the Land Rover Defender 110 CKD (Complete Knock Down) at the 2003 Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) annual trade show. A natural fit for an event devoted to vehicle customization, the Defender 110 CKD is a fully assembled kit version of its most iconic vehicle.

“SEMA is the perfect platform to remind the world of our inherent capability in the utility vehicle segment, and Defender happens to be the most flexible and most heavily accessorized vehicle in the Land Rover lineup,” commented Communications Director Larry Rosinski, Land Rover North America. “SEMA also allows us to showcase that—in addition to being built in any way—Defender can also be built anywhere.”

Defender is specifically engineered for manufacturing flexibility. While the majority of global assembly occurs in Solihull, England, the balance takes place at in-market CKD factories. These six global facilities receive, unpack, and assemble the Solihull-sourced components. This approach allows Land Rover to reach markets that are not accessible to other brands, continuing its heritage of service and expedition.


Currently, sold in over 100 markets around the world, the Defender is available in three different wheelbases, 90, 110 and 130, as well as numerous body styles and interior configurations. While rugged and practical in appearance, today's Defender marries legendary capability with the amenities expected in a modern vehicle. "And with countless accessory choices," adds Rosinski, "Defender CKD continues the model's tradition of functionality to suit any purpose."

Defender 110 CKD Features include:


Exterior color – Chawton White
Interior trim - Black Leather
Leather steering wheel
Polished gear knobs
Brunel Switch Panel
Air Conditioning
Single in-dash CD player
Electric Front Windows
Full external/internal roll cage
Black Door Casings with Brunel Trim
Sunroof
Diamond Plate Floor Mats
Electronic Traction Control
Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
16x7 Steel Wheels
Bridgestone Dueller MT 285/75/16 Tires
Rock Sliders
Front steering guard
Rear fuel tank guard
Winch integrated bumper
Raised Air Intake

[dmarchand]

I think they should call it "complete knock off".

Traction control and ABS....no lockers. It's all for show baby.

[rover4x4]

but damn if it dont look good

[Chris Cox]

Wonder where I can get one of those CKD kits? I have tried for years, but have not found anyone that could order me one. I figure that it gets you in the truck much cheaper than buying one and fixing up, or building one from used parts. And you get to make sure it is built right, quality wise. Plus, in NC I could legally register it as a kit car, and it be legal to drive.

Chris

[Buckon37s]

I get the cool kit idea but it looks totally normal to me. Like any other 110. I thought for SEMA they would do it up.

[rover4x4]

what you idea of "do it up"

[Buckon37s]

Well, the years that I have gone to sema it is basically one giant pissing contest. Who can build the most outlandish machines and so on. Even oem get into the action. To be honest, if it was normal SEMA that thing would have a full exo roll cage, 25 hellas, 38in tires, tv screens in the head rest, bright yellow paint, a pizza oven in the back, gold plated frame, a coy fish pond, and Dennis Leary riding shotgun.

[chrisvonc]

Originally posted by pcarey
If you do a quick search, you will see RA's "FlyFish" D110 model from last year's show, built from the ground up. No sign of it returning.

pwc

There are a few pictures of the RA truck here in the Misc picture section too.

[rover4x4]

I see. Subpar vehicles might need all the accesories. IMHO 90's/110's dont need anything, they already have it all.

[Buckon37s]

Except for crapo running gear. And crapo front suspension design. :ncomment But yes, they are better than most.

[Chris Cox]

I think they did a good job on the truck, looks clean. When I look at photos of most of the crap that is at SEMA, I about die laughing. What is the point of all the BS that everyone is putting on the trucks? 99.9% of that stuff is put on vehicles that will never be used for the intended purpose.

By the way, where can I get a CKD kit? Just incase anybody missed my earlier post.

Chris

[Buckon37s]

Rumor has it Rover only sells complete kits by the dozen. Thats 12 for all the bakers out there.

[chrisvonc]

Thats awesome.. I think The D-90 Source needs one of those for a flagship truck.

Man that would be sweet. Who do I have to sleep with to get that to happen? :zpimp

[dmarchand]

Hmmm:
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04593777

Gotta love reporters that get the facts wrong. Still, it brings about some hope if your willing to run the guantlet of state and federal agencies. And I'm sure they would sky-jack that price...

But it makes me drool all the same.

[RX6RCROL]

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=42903

[Glenn_Guinto]

:eek:

Wooo-HOoooo!!!!:grin

Well, I guess the next question is... is this going to happen?:(



Glenn

[Chris Cox]

Sounds great that they are going to reintroduce the Defender. Only thing that worries me is what the price is going to be. LRNA knows these things are going to be hotter than a $3 pistol, so they are going to jack the MSRP WAY up, I am sure. I am not sure what it would do to the market on NAS 94-97 trucks. I imagine that it would kill the value on the 93 110's. Oh well, guess my 300tdi conversion won't even be worth what the parts cost. ;) Just kidding, it will be to me.

Chris

[mpodgorski]

i think the Latin defender is gong to run into the same problems as the south American "overlander", which was to be a 17k defender look alike.
I haven't heard anything from the sales rep for the southeast, I wonder if they will be sold through the dealerships, I guess I should know.

[Joe P]

Makes me a little nervous about the fact I am going to spend 22K on a D-90 this month. Maybe I should hold off. On second thought - I can't wait any longer.

[TwisteD90]

It's time to start saving my money in case they do make it to the States :)

[paulb]

This is interesting. Step back and do a business analysis (something I can not interpret from LR as they confuse me here). 1) Looking at the US market since 1997. The SUV is huge, in broad strokes the H2, the 2003 JEEP, and tweeked Tahoes have made great strides into the American Home.
2) Within the Ford portfolio of vehicles that H2 / Jeep spot is open so the Defender could fill it. Broad strokes here ...
Range Rover = H2; Disco = Grand Wagoneer; Defender = Jeep
3) Now on the other side is the cost of getting what Ford thinks the market wants. Ford is financially hurt but not down. That means they are looking at areas to expand, areas to cut. Niche segmentation from existing platforms is a tactic (think Mini).
4) For the defender, that segment is true off road capability with some modern luxuries. Plus big size, mean boxed look and style (on the H2 DVD players are it). I can not speak to the Jeep as I have not sat in one in over 5 yrs.
5) According to the LR magazines, Ford is pulling manufacturing out of the UK bit by bit. They dropped the Defender to UK government contracts (will they take on AMC & the H1 in the US?) 6) LR Defenders are not in the largest and most profitable market place - USA while other LR lines are kickin' arse..
7) Use of a 3rd party like Brazil to float an introduction of a modern Defender defers line product investment. Add in cannabilised parts from existing Fords, and if air bags are the core issue, a redesigned cabin is not that hard. Voila!
8) Cost (MSRP) would be difficult. Brazilian construction is a negative, but I would price it higher that Jeep as a premium brand, less that Disco as it does not have the refined touches. Extras really push up the price. International exchange rates are not favorable to exporting cars from Brazil.

Bottom line, pls, pls, pls, Ford do something and design a defender for the US market

[Chris Cox]

One thing I am not sure of is wether or not we will get the 2.5 powerstroke if the truck does come back. It will more than likely be the TD5, as it meets more stringent emissions standards. From what I hear, that is one of the reasons the Crosslander is not getting the 2.8L powerstroke. Why spend all that $$$ getting an engine certified with EPA for sale in the US, when in a few years the engine will be obsolete because it won't pass the new emissions standards that will be put in place. Just another thought.

Chris

[rover4x4]

doubt it.

[dmarchand]

If they import it as a CKD kit and partner with a few retailers to build them (roveraccessories at SEMA for instance), I would imagine they can get around the engine issue.

Seems to me that was the point of their display at Sema.

[tbmcneill]

:eek: i'll be surprised if this happens. don't get me wrong, i hope it does .... i'd probably get in line to buy one.

but, its not just air bags, its the entire structure of the vehicle that'll have to be redone. that was the reason for the full exo-cage in '93 ... the stock 110 couldn't pass minimum DOT safety requirements without it, so LR had to have special vehicles build all 512 trucks w/ the SD cage. so, how are brazil guys going to do it (@ 5000 units a year) in a even higher standard environment?!? i haven't kept up with the regs lately, but at the very least, in addition to some kind of 'cage' & air bags, they'd have to add side impact beams in the doors ... which means redesigning the latch & possibly hinges on the a, b, & c pillars & adding new 5mph bumpers front and rear.

of course, you can do anything if you have enough time and $$$. i just wonder how much 'time and $$$' it will take ... & hope that it gets amortized over 20k-30k vehicles ...;)
T

[rover4x4]

I think the Rovers are built tough and a hazard for the lesser automobils on the road.

reference: when Rob's truck got hit by an Escalade. search the old BB. :evilfinge

[RX6RCROL]

Do Hummer H1's have crumple zones, 5 mph bumpers, side impact beams, airbags.....etc

[rover4x4]

ha I doubt it. How about dump trucks and other commercial vehicles. I guess that has to do with a wieght thing?

[TDI Guy]

I had a Honda Civic hit the back of my Ser III a few years ago. It hit the rear x-member and went under the truck, lifting ther rear of the truck off the ground a bit. :cuss All I did was put it in 4wd and pull myself off of the car. I had about $20 worth of damage to one of the rear lift handles:grin . The Civic sat in the street totaled. They flatbedded it away.:evilfinge Who the hell needs 5mph bumpers and a crumple zone. Leave that to the other pieces of S^&t on the road.

That is true though about the H1's. They have no front or rear bumpers. Just frame. How do they get away with it?

Randy

[TDI Guy]

By the way, did anyone see the pics of the new H-3 pics..

[tbmcneill]

Do Hummer H1's have crumple zones, 5 mph bumpers, side impact beams, airbags.....etc
no, but they but they do have GVWRs of 10,300 lbs qualifying them as commercial. a 110 is no where near that. there's not a single vehicle now sold in the US new with GVWRs less than 10k lbs without the bumpers, side impact beams, etc, etc....

i don't think 'fudging' on the GVWR will work again for LR like they did on the 90 when they gave it a GVWR of 6,001 lbs to break (at the time) that 6k lb rule....
T

[TDI Guy]

Got it.. so its a weight thing... What does a 110 weigh? 4500lb???

[Chris Cox]

GVW is actually what the vehicle can weigh when loaded. GVW really doesn't have anything to do with the actual weight of the truck itself. Trust me, I have had a few talks with NC DMV officers (unfortunately after being pulled over in my dumptrucks:rolleyes ) about the GVW thing. LR could have gotten some 130's in a couple of years ago by upping the GVW, because it would have gotten them past the regulations placed on vehicles with lower GVW's.

[tbmcneill]

given LRNAs history on the 90, i'm not sure what NAS 110s are rated at having never looked (i'd be interested for someone to look in theirs and tell what the plaque says) .....

....but 'normal' versions are rated at 6100 lbs, according to the LR reference i have at the house. that's for petrol. Tdi's may come in a little different, but they'll be close.

... and chris is right .. GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) is how much a fully loaded vehicle can weigh, not what it ACTUALLY DOES weigh. still, a 110 is no where near that ballpark.

there is some loophole about combined weights of trailer & truck being used to calculate GVWR, but i don't know enough about it to comment....
T

ps- chris, you don't happen to know Ray Walker, do you?

[pcarey]

110 = 6503 GVWR

What does this have to do with the airspeed velocity of an unlaiden swallow??? Or maybe that's the wrong arguement.

pwc

[Mike Hippert]

What do you mean an Affrican or European swallow?

[Chris Cox]

As far as I know, the only reason for classifying the D90's GVW as 6001 lbs was that there is a light truck tarriff up to 6000, which would have heavily taxed the D90's on import. LR used this to get around the tarriff. Basically, for LR to get around some of the regs on passenger vehicles, the GVW would have to be around the same as the Hummer, which means it would basically have to have a 3/4 ton chassis, heavier axles, and a better breaking system to pass. Don't see this happening. I don't know what the GVW has to be for the vehicle to not have airbags, but I am pretty sure it is above what a Defender could be rated at (even a 130). I think everyone is getting way too excited about the CKD deal. Think about this: Why is there talks with LR Brazil about the CKD kits, when they get the kits from the LR factory in the UK? Why wouldn't the talks be with the factory? And if people think you are going to get a CKD kit for $15000, which Auto Week stated was the cost of the materials for the CKD kit, they are sadly mistaken. A couple of years ago, a CKD 110 2 door hardtop was about $18000. Then you still have ALOT of stuff to buy. I just don't see how it is going to work.

[rover4x4]

how can j**p's do it. theydont seem to have all the prerequisite "zones" pillars etc. And what about some of the compact cars those cant possibly be any safer than any of the Defenders. well maybe the airbags..

[tbmcneill]

that's interesting about the tariff. the 6k lb bit is the only part of what i wrote that's heresay. it was my understanding that they avoided 5mph bumpers and, in '97, side impact beams due to a GVWR 6k lb commercial vehicle rule .... which i can't find to quote:confused

as for TJs, they do have all the necessary 'stuff' ... 5mph bumpers, side impact beams, shoulder belts front and rear, aie bags, etc. Crumple zones aren't a requirement.
T

[TDI Guy]

IF jeep can do it, I don't see how hard it would be for LR to get the defender up to specs. THe Jeep doors are just as flimsy and they have side beams??

[rover4x4]

Maybe i am wrong but on some of the early 94's didnt they have some sort of side impact bar built into the rear cage?? I am sure this is valid. As for air bags how hard could they be? well understood the complications of sensors etc. seems it would be easy to just put a disco air bag equipped wheel and well the passenger side may take more imagination.. why could the buyer just sign some disclaimer saying they wont hold rover responsible for not putting air bags....

It would be cool to have the 4.6 from the DISCOII in the D minus the ETC ABS HDC THC LSD OBDII blah blah blah blah who knows where the future of the Defender is headed.....

[Mike Hippert]

I don't think air bags work to well anyway. My brother was involved in an accident that totaled his car, it was near head on the air-bag never deployed. The someone at work hit a guard rail from the rear and then spun around and smashed head on into another guard rail and totaled the car, again the air-bag did not deploy. Both cars were made in 98, and both were import compacts. If either one was in my 90 they would have driven away.

[Trigger]

Originally posted by rover4x4
Maybe i am wrong but on some of the early 94's didnt they have some sort of side impact bar built into the rear cage?? I am sure this is valid.

Yup, they sure do. I was talking about this very thing at lunch today with a friend of mine that owns one also. Mine(#491) has these bars along the sides. His doesn't. They run just under the sills along the sides of the rear tub. I assumed they all had them. He was surprised to see them when he rode in it a couple of weeks ago.

I've attached a pic for those that are curious.

[Seanh]

Surely you're not suggesting coconuts migrate;)

[tbmcneill]

those side bars were originally put in there to accomodate stateside-installed inward facing seats in the convertibles to comply some NHTSA regs, but it was my understanding (another hearsay) that even with the bars NHTSA wouldn't approve the inward facing seats for the convertibles. since LR already had the 1st 90s built for them, thats the way they came. the later ones have the cage most everyone else is used to....

for some reason, the wagons didn't require them.
T

[Mike Hippert]

Sean, Not at all. They could be carried.

My 90 does not have the side bars.

[newfD90]

Originally posted by tbmcneill
those side bars were originally put in there to accomodate stateside-installed inward facing seats in the convertibles to comply some NHTSA regs, but it was my understanding (another hearsay) that even with the bars NHTSA wouldn't approve the inward facing seats for the convertibles. since LR already had the 1st 90s built for them, thats the way they came. the later ones have the cage most everyone else is used to....

Ahhh, so that explains it. I was up in Boulder over the weekend picking up a hardtop and the guy I bought it from had two 94s. One had the bars and the other didn't.

[paulb]

So back to Brazilian Defenders. What happens if we discuss the most recent UK Defender on the market AND then add in US spec.s. Can Brazil do this and why is Ford using Brazil?
To reintroduce the Defender, honestly, the Jeep is the US benchmark by which Ford will develop or evolve a new US Defender. Side impact bars, and all that are easily modeled on the computer. Production cost is the issue. Air bags (which I do not like) are law so fit them. Christ they can lift them from the Ford F150 or disco as someone stated. But for me, the question is ---
How much can Ford F*#k with the capability of the D-90 or 110 before you loose interest? Ford did miss with the "reinvented" Thunderbird which they just pulled I believe.

[pcarey]

I'd guess cheaper labor and supplies.

"Would it help to confuse it if we run away more?"
pwc

[Seanh]

Mike,

A five ounce bird can't carry a 12 ounce coconut!!

[rover4x4]

maybe you could wheel those brazilian 110's across the boarder.

[rover4x4]

what about a 5oz bird on steroids?

[jkatka]

I think it might be possible that the Defender 110 makes it State Side without Land Rover support. Europa imported MB Gwagens and installed a new soft dash and did the all the DOT approval. I think it cost them at the time $500k plus engineering the softdash. Now Europa is just supporting the pre 2000? Gwagens. Europa with experience may take the risk to import them and then sell them at a premium, granted DOT regulations have become a bit more strict and the cost for DOT aproval has more then likely gone up.

JK

[boshea]

Hey Guys -

I recently spoke with Rob at RoverAccessories in Torrance about some parts that I needed and our discussion turned towards something I thought you would be interested in....

Apparently, the Defender 110 WILL be making a North American entrance again. However, the 100s will not be sold in the dealerships, but rather as a kit that can be ordered from their parts department. RoverAccessories just put together a 110 for the SEMA show in Vegas last month. Apparently FORD was going to showcase a few Rovers and the new 110. However, Rob told me that they were so impressed with the 110 that they did not ever put their pimped out Range Rover on the floor. The 110 was the only Rover that Ford was showcasing.

The 110 comes shipped over in a large crate that includes several boxes of other unassembled components. Apparently LRNA was able to circumnavigate the safety concerns of the vehicle by selling it as a kit. In addition, LRNA dealers will not be able to assemble the vehicles. The kit will retail in the $28K to $35K range. Rob told me that assembly will run around 7K. He was also incredibly impressed with new diesel engine, soundproofing, and acoutrements of the new 110 (redesigned dash, electric, leather seats). He said that the 110 is similar to a G-500, which I hope is not the case. MBNA in my opinion completely ruined what was once a great handbuilt truck.

If you have any questions, give Rob a ring over at RoverAccessories...he can back me up and verify. I asked him about the 90s and he said that LRNA also plans on selling them as kits in a wagon version along with the 130s.

Is this good news? I'm still trying to sort it out...we shall see.

Thanks -
Brian O'Shea


Defender 110 Kit (http://www.usatoday.com/money/gallery/03sema/contenttemplate2.htm) :cool:

Land Rover SEMA 2003 (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=105&STORY=/www/story/11-04-2003/0002050508)

[dmarchand]

Well it's definitely interesting. I think it's going to be a 'see it to believe it' type of thing. No doubt those trucks will be expensive and for companies like RA and ECR, they'll probably have a long list of buyers. I'll be intrested to see how many they actually import and build. I think your only looking at a few hundred people here who would actually buy one and build it themselves. Maybe another few thousand who would buy it and have it built. I can't see them making that 5K quota they've published. Which means that if they don't make the quota, they'll have to pull the plug perhaps. Also makes you wonder how they would compete in our market with things like the crosslander.

[Mike Hippert]

Peter
Oh, shut up and go and change your armour.

Sean
It could be carried by an African swallow!

[TDI Guy]

I wonder how the VIN # would work then?? Would it be a standard LR VIN if its a Kit?

Randy

[tbmcneill]

there were a couple of interesting points on pirate saying a similar thing. something about it being a 'parts assemblage' instead of a 'motor vehicle' since it was coming in as a kit.

i'm with you, though, randy .... the VIN thing has me questioning. do they use the VIN from the kit? is that going to cause a problem with finding auto insurance? will i have to pay my 9%+ sales tax here in CO since its not a 'motor vehicle' ... or will i be exempt (yeah, right!!...still trying to find a way to just pay for tags) since its an out-of-state 'kit' or 'parts assemblage'?
T

[TDI Guy]

Yeah Troy. That will be the grey area until more ifo comes out. Also, what motor will the kit have? LR does not supply defenders w/ v8's anymore. Will they have the 300tdi, 2.8tdi or the Td5? Non of the motors have approval but I guess if its a kit, it might not make a difference????????????????? Unknown.

[Seanh]

Oh, well yeah an african swallow maybe:grin

[JimC]

Kit cars from "normal" kit car manufacturers come with MSO's (manufaturers statement of origin) which most states convert to a title based on their specific kit car laws - vins are assigned by a number of different methods ranging from kit car serial numbers to state patrol whimsy. I would make the most sense for D110's to come with an MSO. I wonder if LR Brazil will just register as a kit manufacturer.

Of course I still think this is all wishful thinking, but oh, how I enjoy wishing...

[pcarey]

Nothing stops a thread better than Monty Python. No matter what Jeremy may try.

After recently purchasing at 110 I sure wouldn't like to see an outside force suddenly push teh "value" down so, if need be, I culdn't turn around and sell the truck and closely recover costs. But after I started thinking about it and the cost of a new truck, no matter who brings it in, would be so far beyond my current funds or financing that it wouldn't both me much. And I know everyone is horribly interested in how this affects ME. :)

I think you would have the same crowd buying them that is buying H2s. I mean, one of the reason that I got the 110 is it can seat *9* people if need be as well as stuff on top. With all the huge SUVs now seemingly coming stardard with 3rd row seating and being the trendy thing to replace a mini-van for those that can afford it, there would be no reason to make and sell them. People also buy H2s cus they are "new" and esay to buy off a lot. Defenders in general aren't. But if they were someone would buy them easily.

What the hell am I rambling about? Oh yeah, I can't afford a new 110, so bring them on.

"Well, let me have just a little bit of peril?"

pwc

[chrisvonc]

I don't know if it would be that bad Peter. I would think there would still a market for one of the original 500.

On another note, do kit trucks qualify for auto loans

[pcarey]

I guess it would matter what your bank considered a "dealer". Someone like Capital One offers them and as long as someone like RA can be classified a "dealer" then it shouldn't be a problem.

pwc

[PT94D90]

Anyone see this from The Land Rover Chronicle?...

Rumors of an all-new Defender are starting to emerge. Loosely based on the new Discovery platform, Defender will still be the solid workhorse it has always been. Rest assured that Defender is the icon of the 4x4 world and Land Rover will not diminish that status. Defense contracts are also big business for Land Rover so you can expect new Defender to be as rugged as ever.

Engines are rumored to be an all-new inline six-cylinder petrol unit from Volvo along with a range of new diesel V6 and V8 engines.

[dmarchand]

What defense contracts? I thought GB canned the purcahse of the Wolf for the Volvo.

Not enough units are bought by other countries to keep it afloat.

[xmod]

the article also mentioned the possibility of the ckd being sold in NA as a kit car in 2004-2005, determined on a state by state basis according to state emissions standards.

but, a few months ago LRC was stating that a new defender probably wouldn't come out until 2010, when new cafe standards for europe match the US and also the british military isn't looking to change the current military spec until then (they are happy with the current model defender).

LR group would need a large govt contract to justify production of the new model.

their projections on future models will probably change a dozen more times before then.

[redrover]

Sounds like rummers are flying. I read that GB defense did not renew any contracts with LR, but instead contracted with Pinzgauer for future trucks. I wonder who is right.

[Buckon37s]

pinzgauer

[boshea]

SEMA 2003 Defender 110
Hey Guys -

I recently spoke with Rob at RoverAccessories in Torrance about some parts that I needed and our discussion turned towards something I thought you would be interested in....

Apparently, the Defender 110 WILL be making a North American entrance again. However, the 100s will not be sold in the dealerships, but rather as a kit that can be ordered from their parts department. RoverAccessories just put together a 110 for the SEMA show in Vegas last month. Apparently FORD was going to showcase a few Rovers and the new 110. However, Rob told me that they were so impressed with the 110 that they did not ever put their pimped out Range Rover on the floor. The 110 was the only Rover that Ford was showcasing.

The 110 comes shipped over in a large crate that includes several boxes of other unassembled components. Apparently LRNA was able to circumnavigate the safety concerns of the vehicle by selling it as a kit. In addition, LRNA dealers will not be able to assemble the vehicles. The kit will retail in the $28K to $35K range. Rob told me that assembly will run around 7K. He was also incredibly impressed with new diesel engine, soundproofing, and acoutrements of the new 110 (redesigned dash, electric, leather seats). He said that the 110 is similar to a G-500, which I hope is not the case. MBNA in my opinion completely ruined what was once a great handbuilt truck.

If you have any questions, give Rob a ring over at RoverAccessories...he can back me up and verify. I asked him about the 90s and he said that LRNA also plans on selling them as kits in a wagon version along with the 130s.

Is this good news? I'm still trying to sort it out...we shall see.

Thanks -
Brian O'Shea

[Eric Siepmann]

Wow. Decided to see how Illinois handles it (see below). Seems like a big pain in the ass especially trying to get the title. I shudder to think what a potential review with the Il DMV would be like.

As much as a new D-90 with a diesel would be, sounds like it is too much trouble for the effort.

I wonder how long the build to certification process would be...
IE from Crate to leagally on the road.

My only concern would be how these new D's are badged. If they are badged like the origal factory ones or if they will denote their CKD origin.

TITLE: Document file
URL :
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/vsd625.pdf
CATEGORIES : Information and telecommunications;
DESCRIPTION :
Vehicle Services Department
Fact Sheet
Specially Constructed Vehicle
JESSE WHITE
Secretary of State�Specially Constructed
Vehicle�means a vehicle that has been materially altered from its original
construction and body style by
the removal, addition or substitution of major component parts from two
or more vehicles or motorcycles of a different make, model
or year. Major component part shall include the chassis, frame, cab,
shell, kit, engine block, engine casing, transmission, and
unitized body supporting structure.�Body
style�means the physical appearance of the vehicle, (2-door car, pick-up truck,
van,
motorcycle, etc.). The title for a Specially Constructed Vehicle will
usually indicate two years, two makes and two vehicle
identification numbers.
REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION:
I. STATEMENT
Submit a statement of how the vehicle was constructed, detailing the
origin, make, model, year and vehicle identification
numbers of major component parts or essential parts, such as the
chassis or frame, cab or body, engine, and transmission.
If the chassis or frame was part of the kit, the statement must include
that information.
II. MAKES OF VEHICLE
A. Documentation for First Make Vehicles (chassis/frame/major component
parts):
1. Assigned Certificate of Title, or
2. Assigned Salvage Certificate, or
3. Assigned Junking Certificate, or
4. Certificate of Title in the name of the applicant for the Specially
Constructed Vehicle, or
5. Salvage Certificate in the name of the applicant for the Specially
Constructed Vehicle, or
6. Junking Certificate in the name of the applicant for the Specially
Constructed Vehicle.�If the frame is a part of the new kit
assembly and only other major component parts from the original vehicle
are being used
to construct the vehicle, a copy of one of the above items is required.
The copy must show the vehicle properly assigned
to the applicant. Bills of sale or an affirmation statement may be
submitted for the major component parts. The bill of sale/
affirmation statement must include the year, make and vehicle
identification number.�If the ownership document of the major
component parts used to assemble the First and Second Make of the Specially
Constructed Vehicle are supported by Junking Certificates, the major
component parts used to assemble the First and
Second Make must be from two or more different vehicles of a different
year, make or model, which contain two or more
different vehicle identification numbers.�Bills of sale are
required when a frame has been constructed from various materials or
the major components/body parts
are from various materials or vehicles. If the materials used were
previously owned by the applicant, an affirmation
statement may be submitted in lieu of the bills of sale. Each bill of
sale or affirmation statement must include the year, make
and vehicle identification number.�If required documentation
for each make cannot be furnished, see the Surety Bond Section of this
fact sheet.
B. D

[Chaucer]

http://www.landrover-center.com/newsread.asp?id=234

Looks an awful lot like the concept Bronco!

[Krna]

at least it will still look like a square box

[rover4x4]

well at least it wont be unibody. cut out the IFS and put some 60's under it.

[Krna]

the fact is that it looks a lot more like a Rover then that Range Stormer

[Joe P]

That's not too bad. It could be a lot worse. I think I'll stick to my 97.

[Krna]

true

[Tawayama]

That's just some stupid concept art. 10 bucks says the final version will not resemble that POS.

[DJ Menasco]

OOOOeee! I can't wait to put 22's on my D90!!!!

[dmarchand]

I won't believe it until I see it. They'll either rebadge the 2-door explorer/bronco, or give us some plastic clad POS. Of both. Either way, it's not going to be what's produced today.

[Tawayama]

Look around at every other single auto manufacturer. Is there ANY vehicle that's even remotely close to the Defender? I'm talking about more than styling, more like the utilitarian interior, the simple construction, the suspension, the overall 'feel' of the truck.

I would say the only thing that even comes close would be a...hmm...can't think of one.

A rebadged anything is NOT a Defender.

[Hans]

I can't think of anything on the market even remotely similar to the defender right now. The most recent, and even then it's a stretch was the CJ's..... and that was the mid 1980's! Go back just a couple more years and you bump into stuff like the FJ-40, Scout II and others.

Personally, if it has a good ladder frame and good engine, I can deal with a front IFS to a point, depending on the type. But it damn well better not be a torsion bar setup.

-Hans

[Cube II]

Already seen...posted in Nov '03 on another forum...
Ugly,the same way,IMHO.
As another pal wrote:
"One word - plastic"

Sigh...

[kiefffff]

Why does everything "concept" look the same? Don't like it. Keep the body style as is.

[Cube II]

Because designers tend not to be rugged offroaders...
...I suppose...
Car companies should contract cartoonists for sketching that kinda trucks...I know one who'd be glad to do it...
:grin

[OCD90]

I replied already, but it got wiped out.

The current stance straight from LR is that they're not going to be selling the 2007 Defender in the US. They already have way too much demand worldwide, and developing it to US specs would have added too much to the cost.

So it look as we're not getting it. But everyone else should love it.

[Chris Cox]

Was reading in LRW or LROI today that the CKD Defender will more than likely NOT be sold here in the US. They quoted a US spokesperson as saying that LR had no intentions of selling the CKD Defender in the US. LR just thought it would be a good idea to showcase it at the world's largest auto customization show. What a crock of crap! Why are they going to showcase something if they know we can't have it or aren't going to get it? Surely they weren't trying to market a nearly bog-standard 110 to the rest of the world, where they are readily available?

[rover4x4]

tease

[Eric Siepmann]

Tease indeed. But on the bright side is that 110's will hold their value as well as the 90's. They were supposed to offer both as CKD's.

[Tawayama]

don't believe everything you read. Look back at your 10 year old LRO's (or even 4-wheeler for that matter).

See how much they got wrong?

:)

M

[dmarchand]

Go to the source my young jedi....

www.roverporn.com

[rover4x4]

???

[Buckon37s]

Michael is the Jedi on this one, best to heed what he says.

[Chris Cox]

I know there are some CKD's in the US, brought in by individuals. I was just hoping that LRNA was going to make it easier/cheaper to get one. I hope the article was wrong, and I hope what Michael knows is right. I actually started looking for a CKD a couple of years ago, when Keith Gott was selling a few. From all the looking I did those things must be rare as hen's teeth (even though 20% of all defenders are CKD's).

[Tawayama]

Now now, I didn't say I KNOW ANYTHING. All I know is that in the magazine world a lot of what is reported changes dramatically by the time the actual vehicles hit the road (or don't....).

[Buckon37s]

Now now, I didn't say I KNOW ANYTHING. All I know is that in the magazine world a lot of what is reported changes dramatically by the time the actual vehicles hit the road (or don't....).

I didn't say you knew anything, I just said you were a Jedi :grin

[Tawayama]

Yeah, I even have the long hair too (can't grow a beard though to save my life).

"You don't need to see his identification...."

"Uh...we don't need to see your identification."

[mlepisto]

Originally posted by Tawayama
Yeah, I even have the long hair too (can't grow a beard though to save my life).

From what I've seen, that usually changes when your long hair stops growing. When the top of the head goes bald, beards grow a lot easier - just another revenge of old age! Glad I'm no where close!

Mika

[DJ Menasco]

Mika

Was your Defender out at Ships a while ago? If so, how's that TD5 run compaired to the V8 in your old Defender?

DJ

[mlepisto]

Yeah, I was having the engine & injector wiring harness replaced. I guess that's a "known issue" with the early Td5, that I didn't know about until it happened.

I like the Td5 quite a bit. Overall, given the choice I would pick 300tdi just for the simplicity, but no major complaints.

V8 has its benefits too, like it warms up a whole lot faster in the mornings, and has a pretty good usable power band. I'm trying to convince my wife into a 90 SW so I can have both!

Mika

[boshea]

Ok, so here is what I have heard so far from sources at LRNA...

- the Discovery in name alone is being dropped from the LR stable. We should see the new re-designed Disco some time in November of 2005. I also heard that LRNA is increasing the price point of the car another 5-10K.

- I DID see what looked to be the new Range Stormer driving past me into Leadville, CO last week. LR is conducting some high altitude testing of the vehicle en route to the desert. It was silver and some areas of the truck were still covered in tape. I knew it was the Range Stormer because it was followed by a couple of Discos and Range Rovers. The Range Stormer or Baby Range Rover (whatever it was) will be priced in the 55K range (between the Disco and the Range Rover).

- LRNA has confirmed that the Defender will be reintroduced to the U.S. market in 2006 as an assembled vehicle and not a CKD kit car. I guess they ran into some problems regarding safety issues, assembly, and warranties...and decided to scrap the kit concept. Let's pray that Ford does not F@&K it up!

- LRNA is also stating that FORD wants them to grow their line to 7 total vehicles. I was really unhappy when I heard this...no one dilutes a brand quicker than FORD.

It is pretty amazing what you can learn from someone in a 10 minute ride up the high speed quad at Beaver Creek!

[Eric Siepmann]

"LRNA has confirmed that the Defender will be reintroduced to the U.S. market in 2006 as an assembled vehicle and not a CKD kit car. I guess they ran into some problems regarding safety issues, assembly, and warranties...and decided to scrap the kit concept. "

How many times are we going to hear this myth? I'll give credence to this when I see the capital expenditures going into a prototype vehicle that is meant for production, news of Ford/LR assuming debt to redo the Defender line at the plant, and actual photos. Funny how all these LRNA officals provide this info yet there is no concrete evidence to support it.

These rumours have become a tragic comedy IMHO. When I can go to a dealer and test drive a truck, I will believe it.

EwS

[Tawayama]

Ok Brian.

Name your source.

[rover4x4]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[EuroCarNut]

Actually, there is a blurb in today's Car Connection Daily Report for March 1, in the "World Report: Brazil" section, the states that:

"The planned export of the veteran, aluminum-bodied SUV Land Rover Defender to the U.S. might take longer than expected. The company's engineering center in England must first work to make it comply with US emissions and safety requirements. The vehicle produced in São Bernardo do Campo, SP must undergo several changes, among them the fitting of the airbags not foreseen for the version produced in the country - Fernando Calmon"

The link to the article is: http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6903&sid=173&n=156

[wicks]

I think if Ford can keep the factory together and continue building Defenders for the big clients especially, we'll have new Defenders here within a few years, with air bags, etc.

I can see a Ford exec in there...

"The Defender doesn't have air bags?"

"Nay, them's feer poets n panzies sir."

"Like an Excursion you mean?"

"Aye"

"Well, could we put them on there?"

"Dain't need em."

"Well then we might have to lay you off and everyone in the Soily Hill plant. Can you see about putting an airbag in there please?"

"Aye. But, she'll wee ten paends more."

[chrisvonc]

Originally posted by EuroCarNut
The vehicle produced in São Bernardo do Campo, SP must undergo several changes, among them the fitting of the airbags not foreseen for the version produced in the country

A year an a half ago, LR spokeperson said that the Defender redesign was not planned until 2006 and that had a great chance of getting pushed back to 2010 if sales remain the way they were. Not enough $$ to make it worth while to adjust everything to accomidate US sales. Ford also spent a bunch of $$ looking into what it could do to equip the current Defender with an air bag system to bring it in faster in an effort to anwser to the Rubicon market. That too turned out not too be cost efficient because of the huge number of Defender sales they deemed they would have to in order to make the retrofit effort payoff.

It would be nice to get a straight answer. Being this elusive about whats going on with the Defender servers no point. Are they waiting in the shadows positioning themselves to pounce in a swift 2- 4 years? The boat is already missed. Jeep Rubicons are everywhere now and I just keep seeing more and more of them on the road.

[Doug]

Wicks, you made my day! Wish we could say that conversation actually happened. ;)

Doug

[OCD90]

I posted elsewhere in here over as month ago that I have direct access to a high-level LRNA employee that stated , clearly, that there will be no Defender for the US. Period.

Not third person or anything...right from the source.

It was said that it wasn't worth the $$$ to get it US compliant, and international demand for it is already expected to far outstrip supply.

[Eric_S]

I happened to catch Motor Week on Sunday and the "Jeep" is being redesigned, slightly bigger and with a full hard top version, to be made as both a 2 door and a 4 door (can you say 110). The thing that really caught my attention was, are you sitting down for this one? It will be available with a Cummings diesel. We'll have wait and see if it really happens.

[snuffer]

It just doesn't make sense to me, the rest of the world can't get enough of them and they can't afford to send them here with the needed alterations. Even if they are more expensive,

That said, I don't think we will ever see them here.

Maybe that's what happens when you do everything by commitee.

[Buckon37s]

The thing that really caught my attention was, are you sitting down for this one? It will be available with a Cummings diesel. We'll have wait and see if it really happens

And the Diesel takeover continues. Wait till everybody gets a hold of the new mercedes Diesel that is going into the Grand Cherokee!

[wicks]

72% of the vehicular air pollution in LA is created by diesel buses and trucks.

Methanol.

[rover4x4]

ride a bike

[Ragland]

Originally posted by rover4x4
ride a bike

And maybe for helping the "lifestyle" thing LR could sell bikes at their centers. With a flashlight, pocketknife and first aid kit, it would be perfect for looking off-road while working on the love handles.


Jokes aside, why doesn't LRNA take deposits for Defenders with US specs. Just like when high end cars come in limited runs, they take deposits for a few years then build them.

[Buckon37s]

72% of the vehicular air pollution in LA is created by diesel buses and trucks

Thats why I upped my fuel and boost, just to smoke a little more! :grin But seriously, nope, most pollution comes from manufacturing, not transportation. But while we are on the subject, I gotta let at least a few people in on a little secret that nobody really talks about:

People forget completely that the refining process for fossil fuels is basically a controlled burn off. Oil refining is responsible for massive amounts of pollution. I have figures but do not want to take the time to go get them. Gas is refined far past Diesel, meaning, 10 gallons of diesel might be refined into one gallon of 92 octane. This is not the right number, but it shows the point. Add that to the fact that there is much more "energy" available in Diesel, i.e. one gallon of Diesel will take you 1.5 as far as a gallon of Gas.

Now if you compare the pollutants to one gallon of Diesel compared to one gallon of gas right at the tail pipe, then yes, there are more pollutants. But if you compare the ACTUAL pollution of gas burned over a mile, compared to the ACTUAL pollution of Diesel over that same mile, driving a Diesel is WAY more Environmentally responsible than driving a car, and I do mean WAY! So, all you non smokers out there owe us Diesel drivers a big apology. Go ahead, I am waiting. :grin

(ok, rant over) :tounge

[Eric Siepmann]

So we have to be envious and apologetic? :)

EwS

[rover4x4]

do this qualify as a hijacked thread?? :)

[Eric Siepmann]

Nope. We're in the Misc. Section....

EwS

[Ragland]

Any more info on "news" from LRNA.

I want a new Defender. Now. Not some lifestyle branding exercise created by people who would never even think to buy such a truck. I mean, what kind of Land Rover can you expect from some employee-plan, new-every-2-years-Taurus driver?

How many of the d*** things do they have to sell to make air bags worth it? They've had over 7 years to screw around on this one. I read somewhere that the UK was going to require them in 2006 or 7. The cost would be spread out by selling them in the US. Who knows?

[mudinyour]

There is some interesting stuff being talked about Defender coming to the US on the new Land Rover Chronicle "Pub" Forum.

(Speaking of more forums)

[wicks]

Fascinating David B. I don't know much about the processing of fuel so that wouldn't have occured to me.

Maybe Soily Hill should build a DEFENDER EV. Make the ladder frame out of aluminium and the suspension and driveline carbon fiber.

[Ragland]

How about a Defender that runs on its own leaking oil, caught with underbody traps. :grin

[Buckon37s]

Fascinating David B. I don't know much about the processing of fuel so that wouldn't have occured to me.

Thanks, it is kinda interesting. Speaking of LR, did you guys see the article in the new 4wheeler mag that said the Disco and Rangie would be switching from a BMW engine to a Jag engine in 2006. Can't see that affecting reliability at all:rolleyes

But, on the same page it said that Chrysler was officially neutering the Rubicon so if they keep making the Defender, we will once again be the most capable production vehicle offered to the public. Nice to be on top again ;)

[acsims_1999]

Check this out....

http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_2006fvf/index1.html (http://)

[Ragland]

Out of curiosity, I googled L317 and came up with a LR forum in France. The translated page mentioned a 2008 time frame.

Given the ever-changing strategy and financial constraints, I can't imagine any fully redesigned Defender available so soon as 2006. Such a product cycle was quoted two or three years ago, but then abandoned due to PAG cost concerns.

I wish they would leave it alone for the most part, but emphasize improving quality and durability (not new nifty active components). Given every other traditional 4x4 has turned soft, LR would own the market.

[RichardMoore]

this week I've seen press photos of the new Ford Bronco........the proportions look just about right for a new Defender built on the same underpinnings.

Hope I'm wrong :mad

[OCD90]

I'm telling you, I have a highly ranked LRNA inside, and they explicitly stated they have NO plans to bring a new D90 to the US--unequivocably. Not worth the trouble of designing to US standards. I heard this in the last month.

[scoloco]

When I was in Australia a couple years ago, I heard comments (layperson in Sydney) that their standards were going up (airbags required), it sounded like they were going to match US cars standards.
If true, another market lost for the Defender, unless they start doing something.

[kellymoe]

I have a friend that knows someone who has a friend that works in the mail room at LRNA. They say they thought they heard that they heard the entire Defender line will be introduced in 2006. Even a 100 inch varient. I am selling my 130 so I can have enough for a down payment when they do come out. Cant wait!

[Joe P]

:lol

[Campbell]

I know this has been brought up before. I saw this on a web site that seems to think the original slightly updated D90 may return to the US. How much are new d90's going for abroad anyway.
from landroverchronical.com

OF NOTE: If a replacement Defender is pushed back past 2006 Land Rover may be forced to modify the current model for new UK safety regulations which take effect around the same time. Of course if this happens there is a very good chance Defender will be available in North America - Finally.

[Eric Siepmann]

Here we go again....

[Campbell]

I hesitated to post it, I was just wondering if this has been posted before. How many times have we heard the d-90 is on the way. I just never heard that they will have to upgrade the safety for the UK market making the US market possible.

[Eric Siepmann]

I think this horse has been beaten twice this year alone. There are equal number of reasons stated for LR not redesigning the D-90 as well.

As far as I am concerned, it's only good news for us, as the market will determine a higher price for resale....

EwS

[boshea]

Ask any dealer in the country and they will enthusiastically confirm the rumours that we have been hearing. I sat next to a VP of Product Marketing from LRNA on a high speed quad at Beaver Creek in February and he confirmed that the Defender will be sold on our side of the pond again in 2006. He was in Colorado for a few days conducting high altitude testing enroute to the desert.

:guns

[boshea]

testing of the Range Stormer...

[boshea]

Defenders in 2006...sweet!

[dbwitt]

I saw this info on the Disco III and the mentioned the new Defender

news - Land Rover Discovery Series III - updated 23/8/03 with new pics!
The vehicle to which we refer here is the Land Rover Discovery Series III, currently scheduled for launch in 2004 for the 05 model year.

From The Land Rover Chronicle:

A new Discovery is penciled in for 2005. The Discovery III will use an all new platform which will be shared with the Defender replacement also for 2005 and the baby Range Rover in 2006. Key features: expect more ground clearance, higher approach and departure angles, better on road handling and better off-road ability.

The price for the new Discovery will remain very close to the base price of the outgoing model, but the base petrol engine ( V8 ) will be replaced with a modified Jaguar V6. This new V6 will deliver around the same bhp with slightly less torque than the V8 it replaces. Of course the new V8 will also be from Jaguar and will command a higher price of around $5,000 more than the V6. A new line of Turbo diesel engines will appear ( although probably not in North America ), the new joint venture Ford/Peugeot 2.7 V6 TD will produce around the same bhp as the petrol V6, but with almost as much torque as the petrol V8.

The exterior for Discovery will be a revolution rather than an evolution. Key features: Rear mounted spare tire will move inside, new split tailgate similar to Range Rover's, optional long wheelbase, optional air-suspension, overall look much sportier.

We have also had reports that the Discovery Series III will feature a monocoque platform based on engineering experience from the Range Rover mk. 3. The Defender will also feature a monocoque platform by 2005. Some may argue that moving the Discovery over to a monocoque platform will destroy its off-road ability. However, we feel that it can only enhance things; many magazines have found that the Range Rover mk. 3 is actually better off-road that the Defender in many circumstances, and if this technology moves over to the Discovery, it too will hold the same sort of off-road prowess.

For information on the Discovery Series IIa, click here.

[yellowrover]

I love reading stuff about the new defender :toast , even if no one really knows if its gonna happen, where did u get that info??

[Joe P]

I agree with Mike. I can never seem to pass up a thread on any BBS regarding the new defender.

[rover4x4]

:gag

[Tawayama]

You want a new Defender? I hear there's one for sale on this site with an experimental prototype Chevrolet 350 engine in it.

[dmarchand]

Did anyone notice they are going to offer the Liberty with a diesel engine in '05?

[Mike Hippert]

Yep and they say if there is enough interest they may put diesels in some of there other products. A friend of mine is really into diesels and he did a survey for Jeep.

[dmarchand]

Man, if they put a diesel in the Rubicon....

[Mike Hippert]

Then we will have another possible enging option,:grin although it may have electronics in it.

[Tawayama]

I think it would be cool to see that new grand caravan with a diesel in it. If he is doing diesel survey's for Jeep, then he ought to be looking at the same engine across the entire range of vehicles owned by Daimler-Chrysler.

[Mike Hippert]

My bad, Daimler-Chrysler e-mailed him asking if he would do a phone survey for them. My friend is big into Biodiesel and he tried to contact them wanting info on the new Diesel Liberty.

[Tawayama]

:(

[Glenn_Guinto]

Originally posted by Mike Hippert
Then we will have another possible enging option,:grin although it may have electronics in it.

I think it's a crude fact that just about any new car/engine that will be produced from now onwards will have some sort of electronic gizmo on or in it. As much as we don't want to accept it, it is the fact. Our perception of reliability (simple, easy to maintain, trail repairable) is different from theirs (electronic management and other gizmos that make the engines fix themselves.)

The only way we can have that simplicity is by building our own trucks like a few in this board have done, or are currently doing.

[Mike Hippert]

You know, I don't mind the electronics in my 90. They are easy enough to work with and fix, its the newer cars that I don't like because you need another computer to figure out whats wrong.

OK preparing for a bashing for what I just said.:uhoh

[Glenn_Guinto]

I agree with you Mike. I think the D90 (and to a certain extent a D1's drivetrain) will be my limit as far as the definition of simplicity is. Obviously everything else that preceeds those models.

[dmarchand]

I actually agree with you Mike. The '96 and up cars that had to be OBDII compliant are the real hassle. At least with yours, you can read the code reader for your fault code and know approximately what is wrong.

The only way we can have that simplicity is by building our own trucks like a few in this board have done, or are currently doing.

:clap


Vroom....

[Glenn_Guinto]

:grin

dripping with envy :grin

[dbwitt]

For anyone who cares the info on the Disco III and Defender was found on a website called Disco2.com. I don't want to see my Defender's value go down the tubes! I may have to trade it in for a new one, not!

[Mike Hippert]

Holy Crap Dave!




















Your 90 is Dirty!:grin

[dmarchand]

Well Darrin. I think it's a "believe it when you see it" type of thing. The fact is, the prototype LR3's/Explorer variants have been spyed all over the world for almost a year now. Yet we have seen no spy photos of a defender replacement. The closest thing to that would be the Bronco prototype. I don't know how much sense it would make for Ford to reintroduce the bronco, and then do a new defender, for the US market. Seems our overall "brand recognition" would be better on the bronco, than Defender. and they would either do well, or do poorly by rebadging the thing and adding different plastic crap-boards around it depending on how it was marketed...

Maybe they could call it the XXXtreme Defender....

Ah, who cares. Enough bandwidth has been wasted on the Defender topic. It's plain and simple. It's not coming back, until you see it on our shores in person.

Kind of like that fabled 4x4 from Brazil.

[dmarchand]

Your 90 is Dirty!

:tounge

Yeah, real dirty when it gets undressed....

I think it's still all of that VA mud.

[TDI Guy]

Better off not introducing it. they are just going to f&%$ it up anyway.

[loykd]

Damn, if you want to get your digs in on Marchand, you need to be quick! Mike beat me to it...

[Mike Hippert]

Hey he's a hard guy to catch so you gotta get him when you can.

[Tawayama]

Actually the fabled 4x4 from Brazil really is coming. I'm in the loop to do all of the pre-release PR photos and a lot of the marketing/advertising images for Crosslander USA.

I don't know when I'll be able to spill any beans, or if, but I'll see if I can keep you guys posted. I heard late summer/early fall for delivery to port in Florida (main entry point). From then the ball should start rolling pretty quick.

[dmarchand]

Hey he's a hard guy to catch so you gotta get him when you can. :kiss


Slade, that's good to hear. It seems they have been extending the introduction date indefinitely over the last two years. It will be interesting to see the actual product and how it will be received by our market. I think their pricing is the absolute key.

[Tawayama]

Pricing is expected to be around 21K for the base model. All will be offered with 4x4. Early ones with a gas engine and later ones with the diesel.

[boshea]

I thought you guys might find this article of interest....

http://www.fuelcellcarnews.com/Companies/FuelCellCarnews/News/Articles/LandRover1104%2C03.asp

[dmarchand]

Uh, that article is from November. They were a bit late in publishing it...

[Mike Hippert]

On page 31 in the July Motor Trend Mag they have a Full page drawing of 2 new designed Defenders. They say they will be reintroduced into the US market in 2007 as 2008 models. They say they will have a Direct Inject four with variable timing, a Duratec 3.8 liter V-6 and in the UK a Peugeot 2.7 liter TD. They will come in a new modern body on a steal frame, come in a short wheel base, long wheel base and softop. The pics look kinda like the new Range Rover.

[Mike Hippert]

Here's one of the two drawings by mark stehrenberger it's not very big.

[Mike Hippert]

Some bigger ones It will only let me download one for some odd reason but here's the link


http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/58549

Just click on the pic to make it bigger

[Mike Hippert]

They left this part out in the Mag

I heard from a guy who's dating a girl who's the cousin of the accountant who does the local dealer's taxes who was told in a confidential email sent to everyone in the LR organization that....

[Mike Hippert]

Oh yeah, If you can't read German then check this out

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/58080&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmark%2Bstehrenberger%2Bdefender%26hl% 3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8

[TwisteD90]

The front doors remind me of the Ford SD trucks :rolleyes

[DJ Menasco]

I don't think I ever seen anyone reply to there own post four times in a row Mike! :grin

[Nobrega]

I find this all very depressing. They should stick with the old stuff. I like the old County RR's, the original Disco, all the series and the Defender of course. This new stuff just doesn;t do it for me, it makes me very sad.....

[wicks]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[wicks]

I'll believe it when I see it. There are so many clients relying on the maintenance of a standard chassis and parts. Even the MoD told Ford they will not accept a redesign of the Defender.

Maybe their solution is to give us a "Defender2" we can park next to our H2s and keep making the real one for non-civilian consumption.

[Glenn_Guinto]

ppsssstttt.... Mike, you know you can edit your own posts instead of re-posting right? :grin Also, if you do a search, this has been talked about many times before..... :evilfinge

Maybe the moderators will merge this topic to the "other ones" out there..... LOL ;)


I know I can edit posts! he he Even yours!:sneaky

[dmarchand]

I'll believe it when I see it. There are so many clients relying on the maintenance of a standard chassis and parts. Even the MoD told Ford they will not accept a redesign of the Defender.

My sentiments exactly. If anything, it will be another grocery getter with the "Defender" name slapped on it. It will be a joke.

[Eric Siepmann]

That is so sad on soo many levels.

EwS

[Glenn_Guinto]

ppsssstttt.... Mike, you know you can edit your own posts instead of re-posting right? :grin Also, if you do a search, this has been talked about many times before..... :evilfinge

Maybe the moderators will merge this topic to the "other ones" out there..... LOL ;)


I know I can edit posts! he he Even yours!:sneaky


:eek: Oh damn...


:demented

[Mike Hippert]

Glenn, LOL you know I won't do anything to your posts as long as you behave.:grin

I hope they keep making the current Defender and just add theses H2 type wannabes to the Rover lineup to keep up production.

[TwisteD90]

ppsssstttt.... Mike, you know you can edit your own posts instead of re-posting right? :grin Also, if you do a search, this has been talked about many times before..... :evilfinge

Maybe the moderators will merge this topic to the "other ones" out there..... LOL ;)


I know I can edit posts! he he Even yours!:sneaky

That's what people call abusing your power :)

[Mike Hippert]

You better watch Yourself I may have to abuse my power on you!:grin

[TwisteD90]

You know, your power is only on this site. However, my power is a world wide, so don't make me abuse my power now :grin

[Mike Hippert]

Oh man only you could bring up that ninja thing again. How could I forget! What fun that was. And your still off duty so your powers are limited.:lol

Now as far as that new 90 goes, how many of us would buy one, and if you did would your treat it more like a Freelander or the current Defender?

[TwisteD90]

:lol

And as for your question my answer is N/A. By then I should have a SW, 110, plus my ST and that should be enough D's for me.

[Eric Siepmann]

I wouldn't buy one at all. Just doesn't look like anything I want to be seen in.

I try to ridicule it like it was a freelander....


EwS

[Glenn_Guinto]

Mike,

What the hell is that thing in your icon? I know it came from the "Pimp my Ride" site, but is that a big orange snow plow on your bumper? :D

[Mike Hippert]

Mike,

What the hell is that thing in your icon? I know it came from the "Pimp my Ride" site, but is that a big orange snow plow on your bumper? :D
Yep!:bling :cool:



Edit is that better?

[snuffer]

I'm sure glad we have the old ones.

Pneumatic ride and terrain responce or something like that, give me a break!

[mhansen]

So When I was out of town for a few weeks. The Brothers at Delta Tau Chi came over and Pimped My Ride Look what I got NOW! :pimp


Stand Back Ninja Boy! :proud

[Mike Hippert]

Sweeet ride man! I'll get the marbles whose dressing ip like a pirate?

[mhansen]

Hey Mike maybe you would like to tag along next time we go to pick up Fawn.... you know Fawn Liebawitze?. I think that kiln exposion thing is all BS. There is a great band playing tonight they played at the toga party last week.

[Mike Hippert]

LOL sounds good, I'll bring Flounder and his car!

[Ragland]

One of the original plans for the redesign called for a "lifestyle" variant and a "commercial" (read real) version for the military and industry. The US was to get the lifestyle truck, replete with an independent suspension front and rear. Two things likely killed this, the English MoD, and Ford's dire financial predicament.

Fair enough, as LR has all but killed any direct relation to what made it great. The new vehicles now require major makeovers every five years because they've adopted trendy design. When the SUV party ends, LR will feel like the fool dancing with a sweaty ugly girl right as the bar bouncer hits the cleaning lights. The product line will become so corrupted, the cars will require photo montage for the African scenes used in ads.

[Tawayama]

Fair enough, as LR has all but killed any direct relation to what made it great. The new vehicles now require major makeovers every five years because they've adopted trendy design. When the SUV party ends, LR will feel like the fool dancing with a sweaty ugly girl right as the bar bouncer hits the cleaning lights. The product line will become so corrupted, the cars will require photo montage for the African scenes used in ads.

Well said.

[evilfij]

Dealer just sold a 94 with 30k for more than new.

FORD GET YOUR HEAD OUR OF YOUR A$$ and GO WITH WHAT WORKS!

Don't see many 10 year old fords ON THE ROAD let alone selling for more than new.

[Eric Siepmann]

Problem is that legislation prevents what works. Both here and in the EU.

EwS

[dbwitt]

FYI to anyone who has heard this before and still has hope.


Sketchpad: Land Rover Defender
The best defense is a good offense

By Editors of Motor Trend
Photography by Mark Stehrenberger
Motor Trend, July 2004

The Defender, absent from this market since after the 1997 model year, returns to the United States in 2007 as a 2008 model. It retains its image as the purest, most committed sport/utility in Land Rover's lineup, although a smaller, more basic model reportedly is in the works for introduction a year later.

Land Rover is keen on cultivating the no-nonsense image of the Defender, which evokes the original postwar model made famous by the film "Born Free" and by the United Nations peacekeeping forces (before the Toyota Land Cruiser grabbed that market). The new model will remain functional and classic in design, but is expected to be a bit softer for the fun-seeking, less-affluent members of the youth market.



Now under Ford Motor Co.'s wings, the next Defender will be built with a new, modern body design on a steel frame. Short-wheelbase, long-wheelbase, and soft-top versions are in the works, although not all might be bound for North America. Gasoline engines will come from Ford: a direct-injection four with variable timing, a 3.0-liter Duratec V-6, and for the U.S. only, a 3.8-liter V-6. Peugeot will supply a 2.7-liter turbodiesel V-6 for Europe.

http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0407_sketchpad/index.html

Link with pics

[Mike Hippert]

Old news man, I'm linking it to the old post.:)

[Eric Siepmann]

Now under Ford Motor Co.'s wings, the next Defender will be built with a new, modern body design on a steel frame. Short-wheelbase, long-wheelbase, and soft-top versions are in the works, although not all might be bound for North America. Gasoline engines will come from Ford: a direct-injection four with variable timing, a 3.0-liter Duratec V-6, and for the U.S. only, a 3.8-liter V-6. Peugeot will supply a 2.7-liter turbodiesel V-6 for Europe.


Is ford sub contracting Briggs and stratton Lawn mower division for the powerplant? V-6?
EwS

[dmarchand]

I've got proof!

Here's the prototype....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6296&item=2481992777&rd=1




























:tounge

[kellymoe]

That's the sweetest looking rover I have ever seen. And I mean sweet. :rainbow

[Mike Hippert]

WTF! AHHHHHHH WTF! Dave why are you selling your favorite ride! I know you told me not to tell anyone but since you put it up for sale.


So who wants a RRC with a fugly body on it and some Persian Carpets? I don't like it, after seeing all the attention Dave gets riding in it.



















:lol

[TwisteD90]

Holly crap :wow This is yet another example for to much money not much taste.

[dmarchand]

Mike, it's all about the panty factor....


Of course with that thing. I think it belongs in South Beach. And you won't necessarily get "panties" thrown at you, if you catch my drift. Perhaps some other type of "underwear".... :rainbow

But I sure wouldn't know about it... :demented

[Mike Hippert]

Mike, it's all about the panty factor....


Of course with that thing. I think it belongs in South Beach. And you won't necessarily get "panties" thrown at you, if you catch my drift. Perhaps some other type of "underwear".... :rainbow

But I sure wouldn't know about it... :dementedDave the underware that gets thrown at you depends on the driver. I'm still waiting on panties Dave B won't tell me his secret.

[Ragland]

You laugh guys, but that truck is closer to what will be the new Defender than we'd like to admit.

-"Lifestyle" vehicle meant to "accentuate your vision of who you want to be"
-Installed Carpet
-Full power accessories and pseudo luxury
-softer, trendy exterior styling with greater use of plastic
-trendy color scheme that will surely be dated within a year
-ride and feel meant for street comfort
-not intended to be kept for more than 4 years. Designed to be replaced after with new trendy personality piece.

When the new Defender has been on the market for 16 years, it will look every bit as bad as this aberation on e-bay does now. No one will be pining over it like a classic series model.

[mudinyour]

I know rumors have been spreading forever. Thought everyone might want to know about this however.

taken from http://thelandroverchronicle.com/new_page_693.htm

Yesterday in Montreux, Switzerland, Matthew Taylor, Land Rovers managing director told Automotive News that Land Rover engineers are currently working on a replacement for Defender.
Matthew Taylor said, "The Defender is important. It is one of the few genuine auto icons. Our Challenge now is to see how we can successfully take it forward and make it a 21st Century icon".

According to Automotive News the next Defender will use Land Rovers new T5 platform architecture, a similar platform used for the new Discovery 3 / LR3 and upcoming Range Sport as Land Rover is moving to simplify its platforms from four to two.

Land Rover sells 27,000 Defenders a year. Defenders replacement will need to be easier to assemble, current Defender is still very much hand built compared to new Discovery which is 60 percent automated.

Automotive News did not confirm engines or any other specifications but recent reports from other sources have suggested a new inline-6 petrol and Land Rovers new TDV6. Unfortunately there are yet to be reports of petrol or diesel V8's, both are must haves for successful sales in North America.

Lets hope Land Rover hasn't forgotten their promise to engineer every new Land Rover for export to North America.

[dmarchand]

Hmmph. We'll see.

Defenders replacement will need to be easier to assemble, current Defender is still very much hand built compared to new Discovery which is 60 percent automated.

This strikes me as interesting. In plain words, they have just said it's not going to be the bolt up beauty it is now. Bummer. I should have expected that anyway.

[chrisvonc]

Basicly for us US folks, that says nothing really new and again, no indication on any eta or if it will return to the US. There has always been a plan in place to revamp the defender, the time line just keeps getting pushed around depending on the Defenders generating income. But it is always nice to read a little new info.
BTW, thank you for linking that correctly. :) Most people that link to that site doent get it right and its a goose hunt to find what they were linking to in the first place.

[dante18]

Saw this on the RN board. Can you say explorer?

http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0407_sketchpad/index.html

[chrisvonc]

Dont remember where these were posted but these were the most recent pictures of design ideas I have seen.

[DJ Menasco]

CVC

Are those "Defenders" photoshopped? The lamps above the windscreen don't appear to be in the same plane of view and the reflections are precisly the same on the D90 and Bronc? Just curious.

DJ

[chrisvonc]

No idea... I saw them on a couple sites here and there but dont remember where these came from.

[Glenn_Guinto]

Yup...those are definitely chop-jobs. Someone posted those on Dweb before. It won't be a bad design though if they decide to go that way. As long as they still make it as basic as the ones we have now, which I don't think they will. :(

[chrisvonc]

They could also not be real at all and just cad type design ideas.

[Eric Siepmann]

Well whatever they are they are FUGLY!

EwS

[chrisvonc]

I would bet thats not too far off of what they are going to look like... think back like 1.5 - 2 years ago on the old forum, the picture of a prototype from the French mag. Very very similar.

[Eric Siepmann]

God I hope so. That way you can tell which one is the real d-90 and not the ford bronco with a fake english accent.

EwS

[OCD90]

Again, I have it direct from LR, they have no plans to introduce that car to the US any time soon. They have sufficient demand worldwide to outstrip production for the first several years...

[chrisvonc]

I dont think internal LR people even know the full story.

[Burke]

I have to say, those that Chris posted are not bad looking... I won't be trading the '94 in or anything, but at least they aren't 2 door explorers with LR badges slapped on them. Lets face it, whatever it turns out to be, we won't like it (or admit to). ;)

[chrisvonc]

I like them as well. I think the alpine roof makes a huge differance in the look between the D90 and Bronco which looks too squared off. But I do like the more classic looking headlights of the Bronco. As long as it was not priced insanely high, I think I would buy one. I'd trade our Freelander in for one.

[WCURoverD90]

If they are as ugly as the pics they can keep them in the UK!!! It wouldn't bother me one bit...As i have heard and now see its a ford bronco with an english accent.... ;)

And now that Ford is making all the decisions I sure as hell wouldn't buy it...

FORD=UNRELIABLE JUNK!!!

[wicks]

It doesn't matter what they build - if they are putting it on that chassis of the LR3 (etc) it's not what we want. The freaking thing is fully independent suspended monocoque. They're making freaking disposable Land Rovers. It's all over now. Hold on to what you've got. ;)

http://apps.us.landrover.com/future/downloads/specs/lr3_specs.pdf

[Cube II]

I fully agree.
:cuss

[WCURoverD90]

Yeah i couldn't agree more....I know one thing I would never get rid of my 97 for the shit they are throwing out now a days......

Just my $0.02

[Eric Siepmann]

Man, we're all going to be like the series guys in 10 years or so....Cause mine looks like it's staying as well.

EwS

[boshea]

I posted those pics a few months back...they came from either Road and Track or Motor Trend

[mrbrevard]

Press Releases are out as of last week.

They are coming back and Ford has worked out the electrical problems (what electrical problems???). The downside is that they will have airbags.
Can anyone else at a Rover Dealer confirm this?

:confused

[Seriesman]

Ken,


As you know there is no end to the rumors and speculation on this subject. I am curious as to where you obtained this information. Can you post a link to your source?

Michael

[Milo]

Here's one:
http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0407_sketchpad/index.html

Follow-up Post:

and another:
http://www.carbc.com/Car-News-794.html

[Mike Hippert]

Moving to chit chat. They have been showing those drawings in all the mags, I'll believe it when I see it. It's cool it's coming back but it sucks that it is being brought down to Ford Explorer status.

[dmarchand]

Can anyone else at a Rover Dealer confirm this?

Perhaps call your rover dealer? They can proceed to fill you full of hopes and dreams of a truck that will never be...

And if it is, it will be a grocery getter. Just like the Disco. :party

[chrisvonc]

Little birdies in my ear say that the Defenders definatly are coming although I was told slightly differant about the time frame. Yes, the truck will be much differant than what we are used to but does have some promising points.

I am really looking forward to their arrival. I cant wait to get in one or better yet get one on a few trails.

[rustydefender]

CVC

Are those "Defenders" photoshopped? The lamps above the windscreen don't appear to be in the same plane of view and the reflections are precisly the same on the D90 and Bronc? Just curious.

DJLooks like they are the spare tire doesn't match the rest that's kinda weird.

[dchapman]

I kinnda dig the look in the pics Chris posted. I'm not sure about the LR3 platform or the approch angles, but te overall look could be much worse.

[treydub]

Hey, what do y'all think will happen to the price of 90's Defender's once the new one arrives? What are y'alls opinions on what you have seen so far of the new one? Are they going to offer colors like arles blue & conni green, anyone? Anyone want to speculate on the new defenders initial msrp?

[ronward]

Mine will increase in value, no doubt about it. :)

[Hans]

It all depends on what the new defenders are. If they are fully independant suspension, unibody, grocery wagons..... the value of our '90's defenders might actually go UP. (that is of course, pending the condition of the truck. )

If they are hard-core trucks worthy of the name they are given, the value of our trucks will probably go down... but I don't see them going down THAT much. Just look at the price of Series IIIs

-Hans

[TDI Guy]

I don't think it will effect the price. By the time we see a new one it will be so different from an NAS truckyou won't be able to compare the two.

[Buckon37s]

All I know is the thing we REALLY need is to talk about this again, because it has never been covered. :rolleyes

[treydub]

All I know is the thing we REALLY need is to talk about this again, because it has never been covered. :rolleyesI'm sorry my thread "annoys" you, I am new to the board. Just go reply to someone else's thread if you don't like it.

[dmarchand]

I'm sorry my thread "annoys" you, I am new to the board. Just go reply to someone else's thread if you don't like it.


Well, Dave is right. This thing has been talked to death on this board. It would do well to search.

Inevitably, your not going to get much, if any reaction from this board until the ACTUAL defender returns to our shores in the flesh. Otherwise, it's all conjecture.

[ignignokt]

Im not sure what to think cause the concept drawings look so bad..but as long as they have soft tops and a full roll cage, im game..other wise, im going to get a 97 and call it a day...