Diesels

[R.B.Bailey]

So one of the main things that is holding me back from getting a Defender is that I have enough trouble towing my camper trailer with the 3.9L in my Discovery. We really would like to get a D110, but generally speaking they either have the 3.9L or a 2.25L Tdi which is really not much better for hwy towing at 4000 ft plus altitude - at least that is what everyone has said so far.

I plan on buying a couple of 110's grey market and using the parts to build my own, (all the complications and "ifs" and "buts" aside in taking on a task like that...) so I would probably opt for a Td5, or would look to put a totally different engine in the truck all together.

Have any of you put a Cummins Tdi, or a Ford PS into a Defender? If so, the engine seems to be the least of worries, what about mating it to a Rover or ZF gear box?

Thanks,
My Rover Web Site (http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net)

[rover4x4]

Hmm if you are towing something that big then the Defender might not be that good for your application, how much the camper wiegh? Perhaps you could look into a 4.6 petrol motor. I dont think any of the Rover diesals would prove to be much more effiencent at pulling the camper. the other diesals you mentioned for the application have been discussed I dont know that there is anyone with either of those motors in a Defender just would be a huge can of worms to install either.

[Mike Hippert]

Unless you want allot of work then I would stick with a Rover engine or the new PS 2.8. The 2.8 may be your best option. I know that 110s are used for towing in the UK so I don't think it is a problem just a matter of what you want to be able to do. If you would be happy not being able to pass on the uphills then the 300tdi may be OK. How much does the trailor weigh? I would stay away from the TD5 to many electronics And I don't know how it would do with American Diesel.

[Buckon37s]

"I would stay away from the TDI to many electronics" :confused
What? Did you mean to type this?

[Mike Hippert]

:eek: MY bad I meant the TD5 the curent Defender issue engine. Fixed it:grin

[Buckon37s]

Oh, then yeah, thats right.:grin

[R.B.Bailey]

I will probably look into the PS Diesel that East Coast Rovers has. I would also look at the 4.6, but the gas mileage with a 4.6 would be questionable.

No, I don't want to pass on the hills; just to not be honked at by all the little old ladies in their hybrids, while I in my V8 pulling a 2300 lbs trailer can't break 45 mph on a normal mountain pass...

Thanks for the advice. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has upgraded their Defender either 90 or 110. Especially if you have towed with it.

[RichardMoore]

With US gas prices I would stick with V8 - 4.6
TD5 gets a lot of stick because of electronics but the reality is that in service it has proved to be far more reliable than the TDi which has a reputation for being over-stressed . I would be wary of the 2.8 PS diesel until some feedback from real world users surfaces - it is after all a stretched TDi.

[Buckon37s]

Here is the easy way out. The diesels are way better at towing than gas engines and even the most problematic diesel takes less maintenance than a typical gas engine. Buy a TDi, add a little propane injection and NOS, adjust the boost and fuel and add a new intercooler. Finally, put a big race stripe on your D and paint the trailer to match and you are good to go. :cool:

[R.B.Bailey]

David, what you are saying is what I thought was common knowledge. I thought that diesels were better at towing, but everyone except you has said that they are not - at least Rover diesels are not. If you compare the HP and torque, even the 300 Tdi is lower on the scale than the V8 is.

As far as gas prices are, compared to the rest of the world, our gas is low, but if you compare our gas with diesel prices - in the NW at least for the past few years the diesel has been right between the regular and plus gas prices, or sometimes even
lower than the regular gas price.

i.e.: R = 1.45 P = 1.57 S = 1.67 D = 1.50

With the mileage I would get in a D110 with a 300Tdi, the savings would be very very good.

I need to hook my trailer up to someone's 300Tdi and try it.

[Buckon37s]

I wish I was over there so you could hook it up to mine and try it out. I am going to have a whole bunch of people jump on me for saying this but many rover owners are very protective of thier engines and don't seem to realize that the US V8 is a crappy engine. It produces very marginal HP and has major overheating issues caused by a host of different factors. Now, before people flip, they can be well maintained and nursed to a good milage but not so much. :grin Overheating and aluminum blocks don't mix. Diesels are better at towing, everybody knows it, look at big rigs, but, are rover diesels better at towing? Yes and no. They get much better gas milage and can maintain higher speeds better than the V8. This means if you hammer it at the bottom of a hill you will keep better speed up that hill than a V8. They are slower off the line. They are also a little underpowered for my taste. As far as less HP without going way deep into it, Diesel HP has nothing to do with gas HP. They are two different animals. Side by side if you want to compare the two I fully believe the Diesel is going to suite your needs better than a gas if you are going to replace your engine no matter what. Getting back $6000 worth of a conversion in gas savings takes a lot of driving. Keep in mind that most people who have bad things to say about the 2.8 or Tdi have never owned one. I said most! If you own one it is hard not to like it. I was not kidding about all the upgrades available for this engine, it is not that hard to pump a reliable 200 bhp out of it which in a Diesel is a shietload. Good luck, I hope this helps, let the argument begin.:rifle

[R.B.Bailey]

I think you are right about the HP comparison in gas v. diesel. But just how right you are, I don't know how to prove it scientifically - other than to hook 'er up and let 'er rip. I will have to ask my mechanic if he could let me tow with his.

This should be mentioned - I don't plan on doing a conversion. At least not in the way that going from and NAS Defender or Disco would be a conversion. I plan on starting with a clean slate and building a D110 from large parts that I would buy from Canada etc. Frame, body parts, engine, transmission, would all come from different cars.

You might do me and a lot of other people a lot of good to strap a trailer on one day and compare it to a Discovery. I'm sure the new 4.6 can tow fine; but we are talking about early DII's and DI's, and D90's and D110's with V8's. The trailer I tow is a camper trailer, a small hard sided one (2300 lbs.) so it is not an uncommon load at all. It's just that my inlaws have a 2800 lbs trailer that they tow just as good or better with a Isuzu V6. When the 3.9L Rover gets above 5000 feet, I CANNOT go faster than 55, even on a slight incline. And there isn't anything wrong with my engine!

[Buckon37s]

Ok,

That makes a lot of sence. A d-90 or 110 is shaped like a brick. It is a totally different thing. You are going to have a hard time keeping up with a lower profile vehicle pulling a trailer and pushing all that wind. Now that I know it is a ground up buildup, there is not a single reason not to go Diesel. Good luck!

[mikeslandrover]

Hi there.
I'm a 110 owning Tdi engined towing person that you wanted to talk to.
I've towed with a twin axle trailer with my 90 on the back all up weight of around 2.5 tonnes. Well able to cruise at 60mph (legal max in the UK when towing) and turn in around 30 m.p.g (imperial) while doing it and that is on a non tweaked motor. No big intercooler or modified fuel delivery.
You're right about the power being different, it comes in lower and is more useful for towing. Go for it fit a diesel. TD5's have a bad name but it's superstition mostly. Tdi's are good motors and if looked after will do 250,000 miles no problem. My 110 has clocked 150,000 miles and still pulling strongly. The oil takes about 1000 miles to discolour after an oil change!:grin

[R.B.Bailey]

Mike,

Thanks for the response. Let me get this straight, you have the 300Tdi? And you are using a D110 to tow a flat bed trailer with a D90 on the trailer?

What about hills? I routinely go from sea level to 5000-6000 feet while towing this trailer. I think that's higher than anything in Britain!

This is my only reservation for really setting out to get a diesel; can it tow our trailer? If it can do it as good, or better than our '94 Discovery; even my wife would be happy to get a D110 with a Diesel!

My Rover Web Site (http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net)

[Buckon37s]

When you get up really high the power does go a little down. It is not really noticable but as the air thins, you can see some black smoke coming out. I don't think this is going to be an accurate comparison for you but I went up the steep part of Flagstaff with a fully loaded rig and 37in tires with stock gearing pulling 75 the whole way. Blowing a little smoke like a champ!

[mikeslandrover]

O.K.
I've actually got a 200 Tdi in the 110 but the power output is the same, the 300 Tdi revs a bit higher. You're right about the height it's pretty low in GB.
Summer before last I was in Morocco. The 110 was well loaded up, camping gear for a month, clothes etc, extra fuel, loads of water, two spare wheels and tyres(Wolf Rims V.Strong V. heavy) everything you need for two and an expedition to the Sahara. The truck had a roof rack and an all up weight of around 3 tonnes. Sone of the passes over the Atlas mountains were 9,500 ft, there was a bit of black smoke (probably due to moroccan diesel) but it just kept on pulling no issues with overheating even when the temperature was in excess of 50 centigrade.The turbo helps enormously though because it's compressing the air and ramming it in those cylinders. so the effects of altitude are lessened.
If you find that there isn't quite enough power then you can fit a much larger and more efficient intercooler and turn the fueling up a bit, that can make quite a difference to the power output. There are quite a few companies in GB who offer this service as a kit with full instructions for tweaking the fueling. The modifications to the fuel pump are largely external. Believe me you do not want to be taking a fuel injection pump apart on the garage floor. it's a job for experts.

[rover4x4]

who cares about power blah blah. 25mpg and you can drive under water it doesnt get any better than that.

[mikeslandrover]

You see what happens to the fuel injection pump if you get water in the fuel!
Bad news, very bad news. It happened to my 90.:eek:
The pump internals rust really quickly, the hard facing then starts to break up and the pump fills with swarf. Then the fuel solenoid stops working because it gets jammed with the swarf. Pretty soon you get fuel running out the front timing cover drain hole hen you get a really big repair bill which negates all the money you saved by running a diesel to start with:confused
I'm much more circumspect about deep water now, water can get into the fuel tank via the filler cap vent hole.:mad

[RichardMoore]

You waded your 90 over the filler cap? Thats pretty deep, btw Td5 90 has axle breathers and sealed cap as std. Favourite wading spot in Warwickshire is the main road by Kenilworth Castle which is prone to flooding but passable with care. Local Defender owners park up on a Sunday afternooon and rescue hapless motorists[usually for a £10] who have just been urged through the ford by the kids lining the foot bridge:evilfinge

[mikeslandrover]

Yep that Camel trophy stuff is strictly for people who don't have to pay for their own repairs!
Don't know how 'sealed' the filler cap can be. Air has to get in the tank somehow to alow the fuel to be pumped out.

[Mike Hippert]

I thought there was a vent on the top of the tank? I have heard of fuel getting in the gas caps that are lockable.

[Buckon37s]

With a diesel, if you run all the breathers into a snorkle including the gas tank breather you can park the truck in 7 feet of water and leave it there as long as it has fuel. You have to take the necessary precautions. I have a big open element K&N in the engine bay so I can go nowhere near water until I made some changes. I am in San Diego so I don't really need to worrie about it.

[mikeslandrover]

The vent from the top of my tank links to the top of the filler neck as an aid to fast filling. The filler cap has a small hole in it to let air in as the fuel is pumped out, that's where the water can get in. :confused
I suppose I could replumb it all and seal the fuel cap:rolleyes

[Britt Easterly]

R.B.

I know of the mountain passes you speak of. Regardless of deisel or petrol either one will not help facing Gorge winds. Someone said it best "they are like driving a brick". So if you need a towing vehicle I suggest you start looking at others, that are not like driving a sail into the wind.

But damn I love my 90

:party

[R.B.Bailey]

So you graduated from the Disco to the 90 hu? Did you sell your Disco?

From talking to people here and there, it looks like I will need to get a 4.6 pursuit V8, or the 2.8 Power Stroke. Otherwise, it will perform the same with a 3.9, 4.0, or 300Tdi while towing.

In other words, if I am ever fortunate enough to be able to afford my dream Defender, it will surely bankrupt me. :rolleyes

Not that I am giving up or anything. It's not that I don't like the DI for off-roading, and for everyday use, and for towing the family up to camp. I am "planning" on doing a rebuild of this type someday. But the more realistic plan is to get 2004 DII w/locking diff, and 7-seats for the family adventures, lite off-roading, etc; but, to keep and improve upon the SIIa or DI for my dedicated off-road vehicle.

BTW Brit, I am planning on getting out to Tillamook sometime in the next month. My bro is heading to Iraq, and I am in the middle of a thesis, once those things are over I will take a saturday morning to go get muddy, and it would be great to have another Rover along. I will let you know a day or two ahead of time when the day arrives.

[Britt Easterly]

Yep got rid of the disco. To a guy up in Seattle. When you want to go drop me an email and I'll see if I cant get away.

[mikeslandrover]

I'm planning on turning the fuel up a bit on the 90. Not going the whole hog with a big intercooler yet. I'll report back on the result:- power economy and smoke output.:eek:

[lrnasd90]

Does anyone know anything about the HS 2.8TGV? What about with an automatic transmission? I am going to do a diesel conversion and I am looking at my options. I want to keep the automatic, but I am not sure how it works with the diesel. I would imagine that it is quiet a bit different than the gas...the transmission set up that is. Probably need a different torque converter etc.... If anyone can offer an help I would appreciate it. I have done quiet a bit of research, but more never hurts when you are going to spend big $$. Has anyone even done a conversion to the 2.8 in a NAS D90?

[mikeslandrover]

I'm sure I Emailed some people an article about fitting that engine into an auto Range Rover. There was a thread on just that topic a while ago.
It's quite a large file so I won't be able to post it here, I recently found out!
If the engine will fit the RR it'll go into a defender easily and their much cheaper in the States.
Drop me an Email and I'll track down the article.:grin

[pcarey]

Jeromy,
I've been thinking of putting in a diesel since I got my truck (knowing the 3.9 was on the way out but not completely gone yet). Originally I was thinking of going with a 300Tdi and just about got one from RDS but the money wasn't in my hands when the engine came in. :(


In the mean time, http://www.disco-tech.ca/engines/ started offering a complete kit for $7500. Since my 110 already has a Disco ZF in it, my latest serious consideration is to put in the 2.8 since it comes with adapters to fit up with the standard ZF auto box. The kits aren't ready yet and won't be for a number of months according to disco-tech, but if you aren't in need of a new tranny and t-case, this might be a great idea.

Most of the "reviews" obviously favor the engine. I'm curious to hear some real world experinece with it off and on road.

The kit seems pretty complete and does include torque convertor, standard 300Tdi radiator, brackets for original AC I believe and other needed items. I personally don't have the time to gather it all myself so the kit price seems reasonable.

my 2cents

pwc

[RichardMoore]

with all this interest in diesel converstions I would like to point out one of the pitfalls::( -poor heater performance,- on a 300 mile round trip to North Wales yetserday in my TD5 I ran the heater flat out and the cab was barely warm, and misted badly in the wet conditions, wish I'd spec'd the seat heaters when I placed the order.btw I must have seen 50+ D-90 pick-ups in Wales , usually basic spec working trucks[sheep are big businesss in much of Wales]in Rutland Red/Coniston Green/Caledonian Blue with Ivor Williams aluminiun pick- up canopies and Ivor Williams livestock trailers.:wow

[Britt Easterly]

Richard,

We Americans always want what we can't have, reguardless of the outcome.

[pcarey]

Hahahah
true

That got me thinking to those seat heaters....
:)

[Glenn_Guinto]

We Americans always want what we can't have, reguardless of the outcome.

Actually it's more like "Grass is always greener from the other side".:grin An article in one of the UK mags a few months back (LRM I think) had a UK spec D90 modified to replicate the NAS D90. The roof was taken off (I think only the NAS got a ST 90, someone correct me if I'm wrong), a 3.9 V8 was dropped in, in favor of the TDi (I think it's a status symbol in the UK if you have a V8) and big fat 33" tires were installed to achieve that "american look" according to the magazine. They even special ordered the safari cage aparently from Safety Devices.

Then they have a brit guy driving it all proudly since he transformed his TDI SW D90 to a NAS V8 D90 ST. Now if that's not twisted, I don't know what is! :grin

-Glenn

[exmodlad]

Well i have been trying ...very much in vain to get some information from Disco-Tech........it seems they are not offering the kit.......but i may be wrong....his shop is just a few miles from my place and i can't seem to get him to respond to my email enquiries.......maybe he is just to busy........

I Personally have ordered a HS 2.8 TGV TDi and its on the boat from South America as we speak coming for my Land Rover 110.....i am going to build the kit and installing it in my own shop in Langley BC......
I also am possibly going to be stocking some of these engines......and will be offering the service and consumable parts requirements to keep your 2.8 running good.....still lots of unknowns yet but the answers will all come in time.......

My 110 is originally a Diesel engined truck so the conversion will not be as technical as the NAS vehicles......although i am upgrading the transmission to the R380 the rest should be fairly straight forward......at least i am hoping so......


Best Regards

Gord Land
Fraser Valley Rovers
Langley BC
Canada

[pcarey]

Gord,
I gave them a call yesterday and talked with them for a bit. I was most curious about the item listed last on the kit as "jig". I think it was you who told me there are some modifications that need to be fabricated to make the engine just right for which ever truck it's going into. From what they said, except for the motor mounts, it was a straight in type of thing and that jig was for a mounting bracket for some part or another, nothing huge. I'll be very interested to learn how you do it, being just down the Coast a bit from you.

He did mention the kits will be a month or two before they are ready. They are having them made up separate from the engine as far as I can tell. He said he'd email me some of the specs and info but that hasn't showed up yet, so I'm guessing it's one of those shops that doesn't use email much (which jives with your experience). Their site does now list the parts of the kit more or less even though the tag next to the link says "Coming Soon".

It's nice to know there's someone a stones throw away that would have parts if I decide to go this route.

pwc

[RichardMoore]

Hi Glenn - if gas wasn't £0.75/litre V8 power would be the first choice for many in the UK, there are loads of upgrades [5.0 litre etc] - the V8 is used by TVR/Morgan etc and parts are relatively cheap. Comes back to wanting what you can't have...:grin

[exmodlad]

Peter:

the only thing i can comment on for sure right now is.....the words "coming soon" in this type of situation is very vague...

case in point the release of the "Crosslander" with the HS 2.8 power train.....

i have very little personal knowledge of how Disco-Tech operates.....but i personally have more confidence in my own abilites.....i have vast experiance in the modification of vehicles to accept different drive trains than stock ones....i guess from my "muscle car days".....

i do have a well equipped shop all be it small.....and my personally work ethic is based on a quality product and not on seeing how many bad products i can turn out........

this effort is very much in its infantcy....but i do have high hopes.....

as i said my conversion is going to be simple compared to a NAS vehicle and for someone to say he is going to have all the "kits" and all the answers ......

simply by telling you what you want to hear is "pie in the sky"....

this is not a quick process it all, it does in fact take time and money to put the package together....

one thing i do find very curious is that someone has a price for a product even before it is fully developed.......sorry i have a little bit of a hard time swallowing that........

i am hoping and by the sound of it your doing the right thing .....that is....making lots of enquiries and asking lots of question.......sound like me ....

thats it for now

Best Regards

Gord Land

[mikeslandrover]

I'd agree with the heater comment but I'm sure theres a company out there that makes uprated heater matricies.
I put some rad relief in the cooling system prior to heading off to Morocco, worked a treat no overheating problems at all but it's made the heater even more ineffective! Woolly hat time approaches!:uhoh

[Buckon37s]

Hey Mike,

Rad Relief? Is that a coolant additive? You said it works, I would be very interested. Thanks

[mikeslandrover]

Well it seemed to work in my truck.
A discovery had overheating problems while hauling up long passes in the Atlas Mountains, My 110 just pulled hard to the top and the temp gauge didn't shift from normal. Strangely it warms up a whole lot quicker too, this was one of the advertised benifits. Don't ask me why or how, thats a question for a boffin.:rolleyes

[mikeslandrover]

Sorry , yes its a coolant additive.

[Buckon37s]

OK, very cool. All the LR Diesel's seem to heat up on long uphill pulls. Can you give us the full name and where to get it. I wonder if it is only available in the UK. BTW, what time is it over there right now?

[mikeslandrover]

Right, found the advert, It's called Radiator Relief.
www.agriemach.com
As for the time we're now with GMT which for some reason is an hour earlier than the web site says it is.
My 110 doesn't heat up at all on long hills. The 90 does but the radiator is old and has a lot of scale on the inside, it doesn't transfer the heat to the outside world very efficiently. The temp creeps up on motorway runs. I've got a new rad to put in but haven't quite got round to it.

[Buckon37s]

cool, thanks!

[mikeslandrover]

Overdid it on the wading again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
Water over the bonnet (hood) and coming out the heater vents:cool:
Engine kept running though:grin

[rover4x4]

a little late but if it the ECR project discotec i have seen that thing before. looked good. It was here in NC at a non dealer LR repair shop getting a new tranny... the orginal owner sold it. i dont know much other than that.

[dmarchand]

I Personally have ordered a HS 2.8 TGV TDi and its on the boat from South America as we speak coming for my Land Rover 110.....i am going to build the kit and installing it in my own shop in Langley BC......

Gord,

How are you looking to remedy the lack of glow plugs in the 2.8 from Brasil? Especially given your in Canada. Just curious. That seems like a showstopper.

A block heater is marginal because your limited to where you can plug it in. Unless of course you plug it into your batteries via an inverter. Then your totally self sustaining!

I picked up some discussion in the yahoo group (2.8), but found it very limited in what people were thinking of doing.

[pcarey]

Well there are always the preheaters that run on diesel. If I ever get around to putting in some form of diesel engine I plan on getting a preheater with a timer to lessen the wear on the engine during the weekdays.
They also have ones with remotes so if you are say, in your house on a weekend and know you want to take off in about 15 minutes, you hit the button and it starts warming things up.

They also have cab heaters small enough to fit in a Rover. It'd be so nice going out to the truck in the morning and having it heated inside as well as the engine. Ahhh...to dream. I have yet to find a price on the setup though.

pwc

[dmarchand]

http://www.d-90.com/prod/heat.html

Funny, my parents live in Switzerland. Perhaps I'll have to pick up some parts on my way back over the holidays...

[pcarey]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. (Damn I need to search more on this site before I open my mouth). Although in the US they don't offer the same amount of remotes and timers as they do in the UK/Europe.
Webasto is another brand sold here.

[exmodlad]

the lack of glow plug had me concerned also....but i have been told this engines will start down to -15 without glowing.....and in my application i don't do any real cold weather driving......first i don't like the cold or snow....(maybe i should move to Mexico....but then its to hot....just can't win)...when i can actually put my hands on my engine to see whats there i am going to very wealthy in knowledge of this engine and the overall conversion requirements.....won't be long now.....

i am looking froward to doing the R&D for the installation....there has been lots of comments.....but to actually have hands on experiance is the only way to go....

Gord

[merv]

As to towing experience with Defenders, I used a 200tdi D90 to tow a twin axle trailler with a D90 trailer bitch on it for years. I now use a D110 with a Td5 to tow a twin axle trailler with D90 (soon to be a tomcat) on it. td5 wins hands down. 200tdi was still ok.
Merv.