snorkel question

[Kerr]

after looking though a lot of your alls photos, I noticed a lot of you have snorkels on the drives side and some have them on the passanger side. Is there a reason for this. It also looks like some are "ARB" and other look to be factory.

Anyone care to explane this to me.

Also if its on the passanger side is that bad?

[rover4x4]

I think its because some of the trucks are diesals and some are the gas powered V8's I am willing to bet that most of the snorkles you have seen on the NAS trucks are Mantec's.

[Mike Hippert]

On NAS defenders the heater intake is on the right side, on other Defenders the heater intake is on the left side. So the snorkel has to go on the other side.

[rover4x4]

o yeah I ment to say that

[Mike Hippert]

I new you did, you just think faster then you type. I do to, but that doesn't say much as I type with just 2 fingers.

Shawn, LRM did a comparison on snorkels and I think the Mantec was one of the better choices.

[Joe P]

Does a snorkel effect your on road performance negatively?

[javelinadave]

It shouldn't. You are now drawing cooler, more dense air for combustion. If your air intake faces forward there should be a small "ram effect" that should further improve the air intake process as speed increases. I would love to hear what others have to say. I am not an engineer, nor do I play one on T.V.!

[rover4x4]

yeah right think about all the duct work and shit running all over the hot motor. I think its benefits would be negligible but what do I know.

[Tawayama]

The snorkel I have is from Safari Snorkel (sold in the US by ARB).

Not many NAS 90's or 110's have them because they were engineered to be used without the external roll cage. I would suspect that is the main reason you don't see more of those here in the states. Some would say the styling of the Mantec is cleaner, and I would not argue with that.

The one I am running is on the passengers side, comes into the engine bay into a modified Range Rover Classic air filter housing, then into the carb. I have a K&N filter and am also running a Donaldson pre-cleaner.

IMO you should run a pre-cleaner on a snorkel, otherwise you are ignoring one of the main benefits it can offer - cleaner air from above the road surface. I think that any 'ram-air' effect is negligible, and would be more than offset by the benefits of a pre-cleaner.

Edit: It is not visible in my avatar photo, it was installed after that pic.

[Mike Hippert]

Some intresting reading.

http://www.d-90.com/faq/Engine/EngInduction.html#Hypo

[artm]

The only benefit I see in a snorkel is the obvious and intended one - water intake prevention.

Cooler air: by the time it goes through all the winding ductwork it should be sufficiently warmed by the engine heat.

Ram effect: no way with all the ductwork.

Cleaner air: I doubt it. Considering the aerodynamic flow of a D90/110 any "dirty "air down below is just as easily guided up to the same level of the snorkel intake.

Precleaner: why? If it's cleaner air to begin with you don't need one. That's what a filter's for.

Placement: I prefer to run a different heater setup: remove the plastic duct and fit a tube heading to the front of the engine, near the radiator. You are not necessarily getting cooler air this way but trying to avoid any engine fumes if you just feed it from inside the engine bay. This avoids any water problems with the stock setup I have never had to worry about cleaning out the heater intake in any other vehicle! This is just a bad design. Then you can run the snorkel tube through this opening as it provides a more free-flowing path to the filter.

[Kerr]

So if one on us car say a 96-97 model was on the passanger side that is normal?

Ill see if im bill gates and can post a pict ;)

[Buckon37s]

Thats a TDi setup through the wing like that. There is just barely enough room below and to the front of the heater. Stupid placement though, as it shrinks to a tiny opening on the LHD

[Art Vigil]

Wow! Jeff Downs old vehicle.
Didn't think it was still going.

[Kerr]

is that bad?

Does he post on here? if so whats his screan name?

[Tawayama]

Alright...here we go...

Originally posted by artm
The only benefit I see in a snorkel is the obvious and intended one - water intake prevention.

Then I guess all the diesel delivery vans I see running around town with high air-intake snorkels are prepared to cross some deep water? Ridiculous and absurd. There's a reason that vehicles that are never intended to cross water use a snorkel for. If you saw how much dirt my Donaldson picks up in a week across the desert you might rethink that naieve statement.

Originally posted by artm
Cooler air: by the time it goes through all the winding ductwork it should be sufficiently warmed by the engine heat.

It would take a long time for the air to get warmed up by the engines heat. Have you ever stuck your hand in front of your Range Rover's air intake and felt how fast the air gets sucked in? The heat transfer from plastic to air would take much longer than the air takes to pass through there.

Originally posted by artm
Ram effect: no way with all the ductwork.

Agreed.

Originally posted by artm
Cleaner air: I doubt it. Considering the aerodynamic flow of a D90/110 any "dirty "air down below is just as easily guided up to the same level of the snorkel intake.

Precleaner: why? If it's cleaner air to begin with you don't need one. That's what a filter's for.

I guess you're smarter than all of the different engineers working for all the different heavy truck and bus manufacturers who have come to the same conclusion - that cleaner air exists higher up off of the ground.

Man, you probably have a Tornado fuel saver in your air intake too huh?

Whatever.

:rolleyes

[wicks]

This is the Mantec setup that is proper for NAS with roll cage. Installed it on my truck, and noticed no change except you can hear the air sucking into the precleaner on top so the motor sounds kinda cool.

Oh, and RoversNorth has a discount on them at the moment, $350 for the setup.

Also, I removed the K&N filter and replaced it with OEM. The K&N is a bit too large in the canister and actualy restrics air flow a bit. Might clean the air better though, don't know about that.

[artm]

"If you saw how much dirt my Donaldson picks up in a week across the desert..."

I would think if you're running in the desert you would claan the filter daily. This use is not normal so it requires not normal attention.

"I guess you're smarter than all of the different engineers working for all the different heavy truck and bus manufacturers who have come to the same conclusion - that cleaner air exists higher up off of the ground."

Well, these vehicles are quite a bit taller than a D90 to perhaps benefit from the "cleaner" air up there. You're telling me that 7 feet gives you appreciably cleaner air than 4??? I doubt it! There's plenty of commercial trucks not using snorkels. If it was such a proven technology I would think they would - FedEx, UPS, etc..

If you want colder air then run a tube to the front of the grill.

[JimC]

The LR Manual "Working in the Wild" suggests snorkels for dusty conditions as the long tubular intake provides a "cyclonic" dust filtering effect, and it further recommends emptying the dust out of the hose periodically. After seeing the cyclonic effect of the Dyson vacuum cleaner, that explanation makes sense to me.

[Tawayama]

Yeah, Art, you're right.

Your scientific analysis and personal experience has shown me that you're right.

Thanks.

[DJ Menasco]

Whooooeeee, Mike! Did somebody crap down your Snorkel or what! :grin

Sorry, I couldn't help myself! :finger Hehehhe!

Although, you did make interesting comment about the diesel delivery vans. What's the rational behind this? Why not aspirate the engine like others with an intake under the hood somewhere? For example, hypothetically if your 350 on the Serious One was EFI wouldn't it require cooler air too in order to subside the heat? Or is the cooler air a requirement for the diesel simply because it manufactures considerably more heat as a result of compression? Just curious.

DJ

[Tawayama]

It's April 15th and I owe...so I'm allowed to be a little pissy.

I don't know the answers to those questions, really. All I know is that the snorkel catches a LOT of dust, I run it in conjunction with a K&N, so I want all the filtration I can get.

Plus...I also know that there are a lot of companies that put a lot of heavy duty research into snorkels, and one of the reasons for using one is for dusty conditions.

Art is suggesting that the ONLY reason to use one is for water crossings, I disagree with his original statement, and his argument so far has not been to prove that he is right, but to try to disprove that there could be any other reasons to run one.

His debating technique is admirable.

[artm]

Mike,

So far the benefit you're getting is what? The ability to run a week in the desert before you have to clean her out???

If that's all there is to it then I can do without it.

[DJ Menasco]

Hmmm, owe. Yep, I've owed for the last three years! I'm at the point where I don't believe the government ever intends on giving me money..........again!

Anyway, I see your point. In your case it seems as if your Donaldson/Snorkel supplies you with extra filtration then it would without. I was just curious about the "cool air/hot air" debacle myself.

DJ

[Tawayama]

Art,

It's not the ability to run in the desert for a week w/out cleaning it that is the only benefit. Besides, I never said that I run it for a week and don't change it. I could clean it twice a day, twice a week, or once a week, and I would still get the same benefit.

It is the benefit of getting twice (if not more) the filtration each time I even start the engine. The bowl of the Donaldson is large enough that I don't have to worry about it even after a week of running through the desert.

If you can't see that, then this conversation is pointless.

[wicks]

Is Donaldson that big wide precleaner that I've seen? Where can you order those?

[artm]

Mike,

So, it appears that your Donaldson is doing all the work not strictly the snorkel.

What about the restricted flow from using a precleaner. Can you get good V8 flow in a 2-3" tube?

Have you tried seeing how much dust is collected without the snorkel? I can't see how much cleaner the air is 6' up versus 4' inside a somewhat protected area - the engine bay.

[Tawayama]

Oh I don't know that the Donaldson is doing *all* of the work. It is doing a lot when conditions are harsh. Having it at any location would be better than not having it at all. Having it 7-ish feet above the ground is better than having it 4-feet above the ground.

One of the things that I've always noticed is that after a dusty trail ride, the engine bay is coated with very fine dust. If you have your air intake inside the engine bay, that's the dust that's getting kicked up by the truck's front wheels and circulated around in there by the fan. Your solution of the air scoop near the front is better than nothing.

I ran the truck w/out the snorkel for several months and it does make a lot of difference on the cleaning. The tube diameter does restrict flow a bit, but it's only noticable when the RPM's are above say, 5000rpm. I don't run the truck that high, so it's not a problem.

Donaldson pre-cleaners can be purchased from most John Deere dealers. ARB also sells them, but they are way too expensive if you buy them from ARB. The pre-cleaners are made in the USA, and if you buy one from ARB, you pay to have it shipped to Australia then re-shipped to the USA, then re-re-shipped to your door.

It'll be less than half of what ARB charges if you get it from your Deere dealer.

Centri also makes a very nice pre-cleaner that is similar to the Donaldson. The nice thing about the Centri is that the body is aluminum and you do not have to dump the dust out of the bowl. It is self cleaning, but is very expensive.

[Buckon37s]

Jeese, Mike is right. Thats all there is to it.

[Tawayama]

It's about damn time one of you guys figured it out.

:rolleyes:

[Buckon37s]

I hope you know I was being serious!

[Kerr]

so none of you know this Jeff Downs guy? or have a e mail for him?

[TwisteD90]

I know Jeff! He has the 300TDI snorkel on his 90 and it was PITA to install due to heater box and the roll cage. He didn't like it as he kept hitting tree's with it and it started pulling away from the body.

He sold his rig and bought Spidertrax buggy.

[chrisvonc]

Speaking of... his old rig was just up for sale again the other day on Autotrader.

[chrisvonc]

Last I knew, the email listed in his Owners bio was still working.

Originally posted by Kerr
is that bad?

Does he post on here? if so whats his screan name?

[TwisteD90]

His rig was posted all over the net. He bashed the crap out of it, and I was amazed how fast he sold it. I think the guys at Alabama bought it from him first.

Yes he still uses the same email in his Bio.

[Kerr]

yea its for sale in the NC now, I was thinking about getting it. I tried his e mail and it cam back. said something about no box.

So besided the body damage was the motor, trnas, t case in good shape? I know there are two types of D90 owner the ones that wheel and the ones that dont. I just dont want to buy something that some else knows it has problems. You all know what i mean.

[TwisteD90]

This truck does not have a clear title, it's has something to do with mileage.
If you ask me, i would say don't get it unless you get a great deal on it. Jeff really used this truck, in fact I think he used it harder then anyone on this board. If you want more details email me off list. However, I won't reply till Sunday night since I'm leaving right now.

[artm]

Mike,

After reading up on Donaldson precleaners I'll admit that a snorkel with one of these is useful in applications like yours.

I still think snorkels in their basic "straight through" intake design are nothing special.

[Cube II]

Not to add fuel on fire,
I have the same Safari snorkel on the Cube
(a Tdi)
with the standard air ram,shame John Deere's parts dealers
don't abund around here so I'm still waiting to buy the precleaner,
but before the snorkel even in off the shelf form
I could clean the airbox with a spoon after a day out
on dusty trails;neither deserts abund here
:(
but the higher level of the air intake avoids a considerable
amount of dust,which finds its way in the airbox anyway
when motoring around and queing.

Safari and Donaldson recommend the prefilter to use
in what I'd call "trail conditions",low range rpm (around 1800=lowbox mode ON)
plus dusty environments...

Lots of comments on OZ fora too.

Cheers

[Toddco]

Build your own snorkel that really flows the air.

[Tawayama]

Personally I think as long as your snorkel isn't any smaller in diameter than your exhaust pipe you'll be fine.

That's just a hunch and is backed up with absolutely no scientific data.

:)

[mdmccallum]

you guys are all caught up on one thing and one thing only. Nobody has mentioned the real reason most people add a snorkel. The "COOL" factor. Those things just look cool. Seriously though, do the majority of people out there (not the guys and girls on this message board of course) really need the snorkel when they are using the vehicle as a daily commuter? I recently found a better upgrade which you guys are all aware of already. A good marine battery. When water enters the compartment beneath the seat with the battery you better have a good one. Sorry to interfere, back to the debate.

[Cube II]

...it doesn't hurt!
:cool:

[kellymoe]

:confused Marine battery? I think snorkels on petrol trucks only help in reducing dust and help in adding cool air from outside the engine bay. Water is really a mute point with petrol trucks unless your distributor and spark plugs are totally waterproof. I agree with the cool factor though. To the uninformed it looks like a very cool purposeful piece of equipment. But really don't snorkels only work the way they where intended on diesels?

[Tawayama]

Oh I dunno, it seems that any air flowing through a snorkel and added pre-cleaner would be helped. I don't know that the combustion characteristics of a diesel are so different from a gas engine that it would make the snorkel innefective on a gas motor.

What way were you thinking it would make a difference? I will agree that you mainly do see snorkels on diesels though, so maybe that's what you're thinking.

:)

[kellymoe]

I am thinking of the pictures of diesel trucks with the driver neck deeep in water. In a petrol truck you just can't do that and that. The diesel has no distributor or spark plugs and can conceivably be run under water if you have a snorkel. Not so with a gas engine.

I am convinced that a snorkel is a good addition to gasoline engines, especially in hot dusty conditions that we have out west. The air temperature at 7' can be several degrees cooler than at 2-3' off the ground. The air is also cleaner with the snorkel position next to the front windshield than under the hood IMO. I plan to add a snorkel to my long list of To Do items just for those two factors and the added cool factor.

[Tawayama]

Well, aside from the absence of a spark plug and distributor and the ability to run FULLY SUBMERGED, yeah, there's no difference between a gas and diesel engine.

Hehe.

IMO a gas engine with a snorkel still shouldn't be driven in water up past the dizzy. You can waterproof the sparkplugs pretty well, but the dist. will get you every time.

[CDN22]

@ Wicks Walker

...Oh, and RoversNorth has a discount on them at the moment, $350 for the setup...

I checked RNs website and could only find the regular price. Where do you see it listed? Also, is it Mantec? Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Tawayama]

Found this on Pirate:

SEMA LEGISLATIVE ALERT

Anti-Hobbyist Snorkel Bill Moves Through Minnesota Legislature

A bill (SF 2793) has been approved by the Minnesota State
Senate's Environment and Natural Resources Committee to prohibit
operation of an off-highway vehicle (OHV) on public land or public
waters with an air-intake pipe or snorkel that is more than six
inches above the manufacturer's original air-intake pipe. The bill
was introduced as a proposal for a study on the impact of OHVs on
wetlands, but was amended in committee to now include the proposed
ban on snorkel use. The bill is now pending in the Senate Finance
Committee and could soon make its way to the floor for a vote by the
full Senate.

We Urge You to Contact Your Minnesota State Legislators Immediately
to Oppose this Bill

- Existing law in Minnesota allows use of snorkels on OHVs,
permitting responsible access to trails and wilderness.


- SF 2793 would prohibit installation and use of any snorkel that is
more than six inches above the manufacturer's original air intake,
essentially banning the snorkel and causing OHV engines and filters
to ingest more dirt and dust, rendering them inefficient with gas and
possibly causing the engines to produce greater amounts of emissions.

- The purpose of SF 2793 originally was to merely study OHV impact
on wetlands, but it has been converted into a platform for curtailing
OHV use on public lands.

- Existing Minnesota law already protects the wilderness and
wetlands. Those laws should be enforced first before more laws that
seek to further restrict off-road hobbyist rights are enacted.

Please contact members of the Minnesota State Legislature in
St. Paul to oppose this bill. If you need assistance in determining
who your state legislators are, contact the Minnesota State
Legislature's general information line at (651) 296-0504 or (651)
296-2146. This information can also be obtained by calling the SEMA
Washington, D.C. office at (202) 783-6007, ext. 38. You also can
access this information via the Internet at
<http://www.congressweb.com/cweb4/index.cfm?orgcode=SEMA>.

Please fax a copy of your letters to us at (202) 783-6024, or mail or
e-mail to:

SEMA Washington Office

1317 F Street, N.W., Suite 500

Washington, D.C. 20004-1105

Attention: Steve McDonald

stevem@sema.org