For those buying Series Rovers

[ECR]

I didn't know where else to place this other than chit-chat. I am finding more and more that people are selling trucks that have been "built by ECR", but the fact is we don't build that many trucks, and I know all the trucks by heart and know all the owners personally. This isn't GM up here, we are a relatively small shop (but I digress). Anyway I am getting lots of emails from people that have just bought, or are buying, ECR built trucks and in the end it turns out we have never seen or touched the truck.
I just got this email this morning (one example of many):

"Subject: Rover built by East Coast Rover

Hi Brett,

This is a Series rover rebuilt by East Coast Rover about 4 years ago,
It has a new coil sprung frame with defender 3:54 geared front and
read diffs and disc brakes (very nice) gets about 26 miles per gallon
and does 70 on the highway. The engine and transmission and t-case
are all excellent (new) and I have to say it is one of the nicest
running engines I have ever seen, and I have had over 500 Rovers ( I
really hate saying all this since East Coast Rovers is my largest
competitor), This is one nice Rover. This body is excellent with no
rust or dings or dents it has a few very small scratches. It has a
rear full cage roll with Defender seat belt, seating is 3 across the
front and 2 -2 person jump seats in the rear so it will carry 7
people. This rover need nothing and I would love to get it out of my
shop, it has been taking up space for 4 years now, the top is brand
new (never seen one full day of sun), paint is brite and nice, It has
Defender wheels and mags, I put in a new steering box 4 years ago and
just put in new clutch master cylinder and slave this last summer,
and a seal kit in the brakes, it should run for 10 years without
needing anything. The owner ( john) purchase it from East Coast
Rovers drove it out here so it only has about 2,000 total miles on
it, his wife hated it, they ended up having me build them a Defender
110" 5 door V-8 automatic, and this Rover has been sitting under a
tarp in my shop ever since. The last time I spoke with him, he
wanted to sell it, but never got around to listing it on ebay or on
line. To price it, he had me call East Coast and pretend to be a
buyer to find out what they would build another one for, they gave me
a quote for $48,700. John wanted $28,500 the last time I spoke with
him, however, I think he would go down a bit. I know he paid alot
more than that for it. anyway let me know if you have any questions,
or if you need more pictures of anything, Thanks Creed 406-590-4259
or 406-965-2214 "

This is from someone named Creed that must run a shop. I was sent pictures of the truck (one attached) and we have never worked on this truck and I have never seen it before. It does have an old (10 years plus) ECR sticker on it, but we give those away for free.
So we did not work on the truck, we didn't do a coil conversion, etc etc.
In some cases this can be an honest mistake, but in some cases it is a lie, I guess used to try and increase the sale price of the vehicle.

So the point to this is:
If you are buying a truck that was "built by ECR"... call ECR or email me before you buy it. I will be happy to discuss any truck we ever worked on and what we did or did not do to it. I'm likely good friends with the owner and can help you with all the information we have on the truck (we keep detailed files on every truck).
If we worked on it we will be proud of it, but these trucks that you can't find on the ECR web site and are being sold as ECR vehicles by other places... please check them out before you buy.

I guess I should be flattered that people want to do this, but I don't like seeing Rover folks get ripped off and I hoping by posting here the word will get out so that it slows down some.

Thanks!

[130Tdi]

Most of Ed Bears collection is up for sale in Virginia. My understanding is that you did build/service those trucks ? Some realy neat trucks in exquisite condition-wearing said stickers.
Pretty sure the fellow Creed in the email you posted was Creed Evans in Montana. He calls his company Big Sky Rovers. I have never dealt with him but those considering doing so should do a google search on both his and his company's names.
http://www.roverpartsused.com/

[ECR]

Yes, we built some of Eds truck and serviced the others until he moved to VA.
He is a great guy, and at one time had more than a dozen of our trucks. He is crazy (in a good way).

The difference is that if Ed is selling a truck he'll point you to the ECR site were the truck project is shown in detail. Plus, Ed, being the good salesman he is, will tell you to contact me for details.

It is the guys who never were customers and say "Oh, it isn't on the ECR site because of reason X or Y" or "Don't contact ECR, they won't remember the truck" that are the issue.

Sadly ;), I remember just about ever truck we have ever done. I usually lived with them for quite some time, so they are hard to forget. :) :)

Follow-up Post:


Pretty sure the fellow Creed in the email you posted was Creed Evans in Montana. He calls his company Big Sky Rovers. I have never dealt with him but those considering doing so should do a google search on both his and his company's names.
http://www.roverpartsused.com/

OK, that explains a lot. I didn't put 2 and 2 together.
I've heard lots about him in the past...

[130Tdi]

"Oh, it isn't on the ECR site because of reason X or Y" or "Don't contact ECR, they won't remember the truck" that are the issue.


Anyone looking to buy a "built" truck has enough savy to want to investigate its provenance. Pretty poor planning to market something as "built by" but then tell the prospective buyer not to contact the builder.
Could be a really neat truck but the boomerang effect of lying will kill ya.

[ECR]

Anyone looking to buy a "built" truck has enough savy to want to investigate its provenance. Pretty poor planning to market something as "built by" but then tell the prospective buyer not to contact the builder.
Could be a really neat truck but the boomerang effect of lying will kill ya.

They "should" investigate... but in some cases they do not.
I have a couple customers right now that bought trucks that were not the ECR restorations they were described to be, and now the customer is pissed as the trucks are in bad shape.
A truck is a truck, and it doesn't matter who built it as long as it is good.

We could just say that these customers didn't do what they should have (their research), but it is likely hard for a new Rover fan to not trust the guy on the other end of the phone especially when he gives a very convincing story (re-read that email from Creed Evans... even I started to believe it). :eek: :) :)

[rmuller]

You need to start putting non-replicable holograms/watermarks on your work.

[130Tdi]

We could just say that these customers didn't do what they should have (their research), but it is likely hard for a new Rover fan to not trust the guy on the other end of the phone especially when he gives a very convincing story (re-read that email from Creed Evans... even I started to believe it). :eek: :) :)
Believing Creed-LOL

Kind of like buying a yacht without a survey

[dave_lucas]

You need to start putting non-replicable holograms/watermarks on your work.

Or a special tag with a serial number attached with rivets or maybe a certificate of authenticity

[ECR]

How do you get through to morons??

So I sent Creed an email that said we didn't build the truck and please do not market it as such"

"I just got this email from a customer, forwarded from you (see below).
I wanted to let you know that we did not build or work on that blue Series truck. I do not recall ever seeing it in our shop.
We didn't do that one, and we don't sell that roll cage, or do 3.54 gears and we have no file on the VIN.
It is not one of ours, please do not market it as such.

Mike Smith, ECR"

... and I get this reply:

"Mr Smith,

This Rover was purchased by John Briggs from you 4 years ago, it came directly from your shop to my shop, and has your stickers and I saw John's paperwork, little hard to believe that Mr Briggs could up with your sticker and phoney paperwork. Maybe you should check your "records" further.

Creed Evans , C.E.O. BSR"

Oh my god... How can people not get it??? I have been here at ECR since day one, since the day I thought up the idea for the company and I have looked at the records and I have a great memory for trucks. It isn't like I missed a few trucks or few years or something. We also have a computer system, hard copy files and records of sales that have to be kept for DMV and such.
We didn't work on that truck, nor did we sell it. I know this for a fact.

Creed sent me 2 pictures (1 of the truck with our 1997 version ECR decal (a decal we ran out of many years ago in favor of the vinyl one we use now)), and 1 of a Bearmach style on top of the capping roll cage (that we supposedly made)).

So that is 2 people in the last 2 weeks that refuse to believe me when I tell them the truck they have wasn't built by ECR.
I'm just amazed that people think I am wrong about these things.

OK, venting over.
:) :)

Follow-up Post:

Or a special tag with a serial number attached with rivets or maybe a certificate of authenticity


The tags and such are a funny idea. All people have to do is call or email me. :) :)

I'm still just amazed that people think I'm wrong about this stuff. I wonder how many trucks a year they think we put out? I guess they think it is enough so that we wouldn't recall what we did and didn't build. :)

[SMOB]

Or a special tag with a serial number attached with rivets or maybe a certificate of authenticityMaybe an official ECR registry (along with specially created/numbered stickers under the hood/elsewhere)? The registry stays private at ECR, and you only give out "yes, it's an ECR truck" and basic info on upgrades. But this gives ECR added management work that may or may not be wanted.

[landrovered]

Creed...That is the basic problem right there. He told me he built a 110 from brand new parts and sold it for $85k, he also boasts having 250 defenders sitting in his yard. He also told me that my 110 needed a new frame or it would never drive straight, he said that sight unseen.

Creed, ha ha, thanks for the laugh.

[ECR]

We already have a registry.
Its called our computer and our customer files. :) :) :) :)

Follow-up Post:

Maybe an official ECR registry (along with specially created/numbered stickers under the hood/elsewhere)? The registry stays private at ECR, and you only give out "yes, it's an ECR truck" and basic info on upgrades. But this gives ECR added management work that may or may not be wanted.

I have tried to do this a little on the ECR site. In the last few months I have started listing the NAS # on the web pages. So instead of the web page being "any Yellow ST" it is now the work done on "Yellow ST #xxx".

Follow-up Post:

Just to keep up the stupidity...
I sent an email to Creed asking for Mr. Briggs contact info. so that I could talk with him about it.
Here is his reply:

"What Could there be to discuss, you said you did not build this Rover and that I am making this all up, I am however forwarding all these emails to John Briggs and I hope you hear from him or his attorney.

At 10:15 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
> Creed Evans wrote:
>> Mr Smith,
>>
>> This Rover was purchased by John Briggs from you 4 years ago, it came directly from your shop to my shop
>
> Please give me Mr. Briggs contact information (phone or email). I would like to discuss this with him. "

Follow-up Post:

Is it just me or do small business owners that refer to themselves as CEOs and always talk about "their lawyers" just sound like a-holes?

Follow-up Post:

Creed... he also boasts having 250 defenders sitting in his yard.

Hasn't he ever heard of Google Earth?

I "google earthed" the old shop in Warren and you can see everything, right down to my old STi sitting the driveway.

[SMOB]

Hasn't he ever heard of Google Earth?

I "google earthed" the old shop in Warren and you can see everything, right down to my old STi sitting the driveway.Not to keep this going or anything.. but a search on the 406-965-3266 number (all over Big Sky Rover's site) reveals a google map of the area..

http://maps.google.com/maps?li=rwp&q=W+Of+Vaughn,+Vaughn,+MT+59487

Does anyone see anything in that area looking like 250 Defenders? The address info might just be incorrect. Personally, I think a satellite shot of 250 Defenders would be bad-ass.

[rmuller]

20 Flora Ln, Vaughn, Mt 59487 is a more direct address associated to him... no plethora of rovers there either.. I was just looking for a cool sat. shot of 250 defenders as well!

[landrovered]

He must have moved them all to the franchisee's yards. Is that like Perot's volunteers?

Follow-up Post:

I count 25 and that is being generous.

[themaxx]

Underground garage.

[JSBriggs]

...I sent an email to Creed asking for Mr. Briggs contact info. so that I could talk with him about it.
Here is his reply:

"What Could there be to discuss, you said you did not build this Rover and that I am making this all up, I am however forwarding all these emails to John Briggs and I hope you hear from him or his attorney.

At 10:15 AM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
> Creed Evans wrote:
>> Mr Smith,
>>
>> This Rover was purchased by John Briggs from you 4 years ago, it came directly from your shop to my shop
>
> Please give me Mr. Briggs contact information (phone or email). I would like to discuss this with him. "



I have a cousin named John....unfortunately he isnt ito Rovers, so its probably not him. You dont want his email address do you? :grin

-Jeff

[SMOB]

He must have moved them all to the franchisee's yards. Is that like Perot's volunteers?

Follow-up Post:

I count 25 and that is being generous.the other 225 must have had oil cooler line fires. oh, the humanity.

[ECR]

I have a cousin named John....unfortunately he isnt ito Rovers, so its probably not him. You dont want his email address do you? :grin

-Jeff

Nah, thats OK. We'll let you work on getting him into Rovers. :) :)

We only have one Briggs in our computer system... and that is YOU! :)

[zimm]

im looking at the pic of of that blue one in post 1, and if you built that, you suck. i can do "suck" myself, i dont need to pay someone for that. it looks like it was slapped together by a drunk... were you drunk? maybe thats why you dont remember it.

[Lyman]

To price it, he had me call East Coast and pretend to be a
buyer to find out what they would build another one for, they gave me
a quote for $48,700.

holy crap Mike... what were you trying to do... rip him off? :evilfinge

Can't believe Creed is still in the business.

[Hans]

im looking at the pic of of that blue one in post 1, and if you built that, you suck. i can do "suck" myself, i dont need to pay someone for that. it looks like it was slapped together by a drunk... were you drunk? maybe thats why you dont remember it.

That's the first thing I thought of myself when I saw it..... there's no WAY that ECR built that thing. I mean, Mike might as well call his company OCD Rovers for the attention to detail and how well everything blends together in every ECR rover I've ever seen photos of.

-Hans

[ECR]

holy crap Mike... what were you trying to do... rip him off? :evilfinge

Can't believe Creed is still in the business.

Even that part of his story is BS (the fact that we gave him a replacement cost quote), because we don't give any quotes until we go over the truck, so he even made up that part. :)

I know this is dragging on, but I did find out that the frame is not even galvanized. I told Creed if he is so sure we built it, to look for the chassis #s that are stamped on and then galvanized in on every coil truck that we have ever built and he said they couldn't be galvanized in because the frame isn't galvanized!

Just for giggles... more pictures of said truck:

[zimm]

Even that part of his story is BS (the fact that we gave him a replacement cost quote), because we don't give any quotes until we go over the truck, so he even made up that part. :)

I know this is dragging on, but I did find out that the frame is not even galvanized. I told Creed if he is so sure we built it, to look for the chassis #s that are stamped on and then galvanized in on every coil truck that we have ever built and he said they couldn't be galvanized in because the frame isn't galvanized!

Just for giggles... more pictures of said truck:driven 2000 miles then parked? hes missin some zero's.

[DaveG]

This was already said, but I thought I would stress it again. Google this guy, his name has been dragged through the mud several times. He's obviously a little "slippery" to say the least!

By the way, do you remember this one Mike? Series-III hi-cap?

[tomaco1]

$28,499!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ren Ching]

hey tom, nice find. you can't fake that patina. Throw that on top of the arrow chassis from montana and you can have a sweet truck for only $57,000! Or if you like shiny things, for that money you could buy Bart's 110.

Actually the montana truck doesn't look too bad all said and done. But it needs new rims and tires and a different color top. And the galvy stripped of paint and that funky stuff taken off the rear cross. Then it might be a 8-10k truck if its solid and runs well. Is that Don from CO in the one pic?



$28,499!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[headdamage]

I didn't have to read any further than the name "Creed" and the area code 406 to know that this was going to be good ;)

[Ren Ching]

Andrew! How's the 110 project going?

cheers
Dave

I didn't have to read any further than the name "Creed" and the area code 406 to know that this was going to be good ;)

[headdamage]

Slowly... just dug a 6.2 out of my old suburban for it yesterday and got a good quote on an nv4500 today. Need to assemble the 200tdi for the 90 first though.

[mpsteil]

Go ahead and Google earth me. I have twelve Defenders on my property. It would be a cool pic but mind you one is a 97 ST, one is a NAS 110, and the rest are matchbox toys:)

[ECR]

By the way, do you remember this one Mike? Series-III hi-cap?

Absolutely. Was originally a RN company truck, then sold to Lloyd Miller who was a local collector. He sadly passed away a few months ago. We put a galv. frame in that many years ago. It was then sold and has sold again in th last few years. Lost track of it after it left our services.
:)

[DaveG]

Absolutely. Was originally a RN company truck, then sold to Lloyd Miller who was a local collector. He sadly passed away a few months ago. We put a galv. frame in that many years ago. It was then sold and has sold again in th last few years. Lost track of it after it left our services.
:)
A good friend of mine bought it a couple years ago from a guy in NH. He's on this board occasionally. It looks like he wants to put it up for sale though.... It's still in amazing shape. I don't think much mileage has been put on it at all and it's been stored in doors. If you know anyone who would be interested let me know and I'll pass the word!

[130Tdi]

How do you get through to morons??

"
Oh my god....
We didn't work on that truck, nor did we sell it. I know this for a fact.

So that is 2 people in the last 2 weeks that refuse to believe me when I tell them the truck they have wasn't built by ECR.
I'm just amazed that people think I am wrong about these things.

OK, venting over.

I'm still just amazed that people think I'm wrong about this stuff. I wonder how many trucks a year they think we put out? I guess they think it is enough so that we wouldn't recall what we did and didn't build. :)Thats the ultimate form of flattery isn't it ? They want the truck to be an ECR product so badly they won't even believe your assertion it isn't your work.

Follow-up Post:

Is that Don from CO in the one pic?
That does look like Pendy's buddy Don P.

[pendy]

It is Don,

Creed still has his spell over him. He is up there right now trying to get paid for a few months work! I had wondered how Creed would have ended up with a ECR truck. Guess Mike confirms it is not one of his trucks. I think Don had his doubts as well.

Oh the drama-


hey tom, nice find. you can't fake that patina. Throw that on top of the arrow chassis from montana and you can have a sweet truck for only $57,000! Or if you like shiny things, for that money you could buy Bart's 110.

Actually the montana truck doesn't look too bad all said and done. But it needs new rims and tires and a different color top. And the galvy stripped of paint and that funky stuff taken off the rear cross. Then it might be a 8-10k truck if its solid and runs well. Is that Don from CO in the one pic?

[akfisher]

as an interesting aside there is a guy in vancouver bc named richard creed dba pacific custom landrovers who(if such a thing is possible) is even more disreputable than creed evans. the moral of the story, if you hear the words land rover and creed in the same sentence hold onto your wallet and slowly back away.