difference: Disco 200tdi and Defender 200tdi?

[jaherring]

Hi,

I am considering a TDI upgrade for an '86 LR 90 and have a line on a 200tdi, but it's from a Discovery. I've been recently told that it's quite different from the 200tdi in a 90/110/Defender.

Has anyone installed a Disco 200tdi in a D90? What are the different problems associated with it?

I originally thought it would be a no-brainer upgrade to the anemic 2.5L n/a diesel currently in the vehicle, but I might not be able to use this engine.

Thanks--

[mikeslandrover]

As I understand it the disco 200tdi won't fit straight in.
1) the turbo is in the wrong place and fouls the bulkhead
2) the fuel injection pump sits much lower and gets in the way of the steering box but that might not be an issue with a left hooker.
3) the front cover for the timing belt is different [as are the timing belts themselves]

When I was looking for my 200tdi I was advised to hold out for a defender engine because it wil drop straight in. I did, and Andy Sargent at AJS was right. The engine dropped straight onto the chassis mounts, the gearbox (LT77) bolted straight up and the exhaust was an off the shelf fit.
Having said that most things can be made to fit if you:-
a) have enough time
b) have a fabrication shop
c) have enough skill
or
d) pay someone else for all the above.
My good friend fitted a disco 200 tdi into an 88" series 2A but you won't find many of the parts needed in the LR parts book!

[Chris Cox]

You will probably be better off finding a good used 300tdi/R380 kit. Decent 200tdi's are in such great demand that they are much more expensive than 300tdi's.

[mikeslandrover]

300 tdi's are all the same regardless of the vehicle they are out of.
They won't drop straight in either though. You'll need to change the chassis mounts for the engine and get new floor and transmission tunnel.
Nothing is ever easy. Hold out for a 200 tdi the engine is sturdier, they rarely eat their timing belts:eek:

[jaherring]

Thanks for your responses, great info.

There is a perfectly good 200tdi available to me for under $1K, but it's out of a Disco. If the mods required to make it fit the D90 are less expensive/less trouble than the 300tdi (which requires the new tranny... or, some funky mounting of the engine to mate to the LT77) then I'd go with that. Maybe a few years down the road I'd consider something like the 2.8, but for now that's out of my price range (I am in the process of buying a house, also - yikes).

For example, what does a different timing cover/belt mean to me? Will that interfere with something on the D90? I'm happy to put in an electric fan, so it's just accessories to worry about & this truck has manual steering and no aircon (though I'd like to add that later).

If the turbo is different, is it because the intake/exhaust manifolds are substantially different? Would that just mean new exhaust, or is it even more trouble?

If the fuel pump gets in the way (though, as mentioned, this is a LHD so maybe not) can't I just relocate it? If it's a mechanical pump I could pick up the Def version; if it's electric, that's easy.

The trouble is that t's hard to find a Defender 200tdi in the US, so I might not have that option readily available to me.

I have done alot of engine swaps, but nothing that required special fabrication (eg big block Mopar in a SB engine bay, etc etc). I wouldn't want to have to fabricate engine mounts in a new position or try to mate an engine and tranny which don't bolt together easily if I'm doing this all/mostly myself.

I'm pretty confident the 200tdi would be a great upgrade for my truck and I'd be happy for quite awhile/until I could afford the 2.8.

I guess I could consider a V8 (3.9L? 4.0L? 4.6L?) as well down the road....

Anyone out there have a grenaded Defender 200tdi for sale cheap? :)

[roverx]

You may want to give Peter Janney a shout at www.badgercoachworks.com. He has a 86 XMOD 200 Tdi that he sourced for $2K in very nice shape. :)

[mikeslandrover]

The fuel pump I was refering to is the injection pump. You can't relocate that!
If you're happy with an electric fan that's good too as it removes another problem. The only remaining issue would be the turbo position which I'm 100% certain is different and from what I've been told fouls things in the bulkhead area. I'll try and take a pic of my instalation and post it if that would help.
Try and get hold of the rad & intrecooler that go with the engine.

[whistler110]

The big difference between the Disco and Def 200TDI's is the location of the turbo and the exhaust manifold. The Defender turbo is placed higher than the Disco. You can make a Disco 200TDI fit in a RHD Defender by changing the exhaust down pipe. However the Disco engine will not fit in a LHD Defender unless you can figure out a way to move your steering linkage and then you will still have to make up a new exhaust down pipe. If you think about trying to change the manifolds, good luck there doesn't seem to be any available. Are you looking at the engine in Florida?

I'm looking to do the same conversion, so have been researching the options for quite awhile. Also it is possible to fit a 300TDI to an LT77 tranny. check www.nicksjungle.co.uk

[mikeslandrover]

Top web site, good call. Maybe a defender 200 tdi turbo & manifold could be found in a breakers over here in GB.:cool:

[jaherring]

I did look at that engine in Florida, among some others I've found.. they all seem to be Discovery 200 TDIs. Maybe I could locate a Defender manifold setup in the UK - I will be in Paris in two weeks & I could bring it back with me then (will the new security protocol let me carry on an intake manifold? :))

The engine in FL needs an injection pump & injectors - I'm not sure that's inexpensive & I suppose I can't use the pump/injectors from the 2.5L n/a, can I?

[whistler110]

I'm not positive about using other pumps, but I doubt it and yes they are expensive.

Good luck in finding a Defender manifold, from what I understand they are hard to come by. Let me know how it goes, if you find more than one I'd be interested.

[mikeslandrover]

Injection pump:rolleyes
Expensive doesn't describe it.
When my injection pump let go and did this (see Photo)
to the inside of the front timing cover I was quoted £2000 yep £2000 for a new one or £500 for mine to be rebuilt. Now you can buy a whole 200tdi defender engine running with all associated hardware for around that sort of money in the UK.
If your engine hasn't got the injection pump or intercooler and ALL the associated hardware I'd walk away. It's not a good deal.
The seals leaked because water got into the fuel, the internals of the pump corroded. The hard facing was destroyed by the rusting and then the pump ate itself. The end result was a mixture of diesel and timing belt deposited round the timing case. I'd have spotted the trouble earlier if I hadn't left the wading plugs in for too long:mad :eek:

[mikeslandrover]

That's £2000 for the pump - list price - by the way.
The black sludge was a right pain to remove but at least the cam belt didn't break:rolleyes

[jaherring]

Thanks for the info.. yikes on the price! It had better be gold plated for that cost.

Well unless the injection pump from the 2.5L n/a will fit on the 200tdi and the injectors are the same that kind of cost rules out the 200tdi in Florida....

This would all be easier if I could locate a Defender 200tdi...(in the US). I did find a complete 3.9L from a Defender with all ancilliaries for $2K, but that's gonig to be more work & I'll need a tranny. Plus, I was looking forward to the novelty of the TDI and the good mileage.

If I'm going to go V8 I'd want to go all out and drop in the 4.6L if that's possible... but either the 4.6L or the 2.8L PS were something I had wanted to consider a couple years down the road.

Is there any such thing as a good used 200tdi on the cheap which isn't from a Discovery?

[whistler110]

Simply? NO!

They only built the Defender 200TDI for 4 years, and with the fact that you can put them into any preveious LR's they have become hard to find. Try www.landrover-salvage.co.uk. They always seem to have some in stock and the last time I talked to them a conversion kit was worth about 2000 pounds.

[mikeslandrover]

Originally posted by whistler110
Simply? NO!

They only built the Defender 200TDI for 4 years, and with the fact that you can put them into any preveious LR's they have become hard to find. Try www.landrover-salvage.co.uk. They always seem to have some in stock and the last time I talked to them a conversion kit was worth about 2000 pounds.

Yep. that's the going rate.
A 300tdi will bolt onto an LT77 gearbox one stud is different and I think you can leave it out or redrill the bell housing.

The injection pump from your N/A lump and the injectors won't fit on a 200tdi, even if they did the fueling would be way way out. It would have no mechanism for upping the fuel when the turbo cut in.
Part of the tdi's efficiency & power comes from it being a direct injection engine and it has very high injection pressures 20,000 psi springs to mind, the injectors are different too so you can't even use them. They are two stage high pressure things at around £100 each reconditioned exchange. Don't even ask about the new price. I had to be picked off the floor and revived several times during enquires over the rebuilding of my fuel injection system:eek:

[jaherring]

OK, more shock. I'm getting a reality check here & this is definitely not as easy as I originally hoped! OK, forget the engine without the injector pump.

So, it sounds like if I could locate a Defender exhaust manifold a 200tdi from a Discovery would fit - right? The same turbo, some different plumbing to the intake (is the intake manifold the same? Please say yes!). The injector pump sounds like it has a differently located/shaped housing, but won't interfere with anything mounting in a LHD Defender (right?). The timing cover is also different, but with a low-profile electric fan (which works better anyway) I don't care about fan/shroud issues.

SO, that being said, maybe I could locate a manifold over in the UK since there are far more Defenders over there & a heck of alot more 200tdi engines.

Do you think that would work? If so, it seems like a "200tdi Disco->Def mounting kit" could be put together relatively easy.

Regarding the 300tdi, I don't know how easy that is to find in the US (certainly hard to find Defender models of it) & is the Discovery 300tdi going to have the same challenges the Disco 200 tdi has?

From what I understand, it locates some 7" farther back in the engine bay than per factory installation (in a Def or a Disco? Dunno, only repeating what I've learned here and elsewhere so far). Is it just the case of needing new engine mounts, or is a new/different crossmember required & then how extensive/custom would that be to fit?

The goal would be to keep the original LT77 5-spd in it's stock location.

Thanks for all the info - good discussion & I'm learning alot about this eccentric little truck!

[whistler110]

Sorry, can't tell you for sure about the inlet manifold but my guess is that they are different as well. The parts program shows different #'s and the diagrams do not look similar at all.

I don't know how much luck you'll have finding a manifold in the UK, they seem to have a hard time finding them as well.

Theoretically, if you change the manifolds everything else should work though you would probably need to have the pump re-tuned as the two manifold systems produce different power outputs.

300 TDI's are more common in North America than 200TDI's. Try www.wildewestlandrovers.ab.ca he had some a month ago.

You should be able to keep the LT77 where it is.

[jaherring]

I just read the tech article at http://www.nicksjungle.co.uk on the 300tdi install - not too bad, but still a bit of fabrication work.

Regarding the 200tdi, even if the intake manifold is different on the Disco isn't that just a plumbing issue? Is it something that some custom ducting/tubing from the (Def-exhaust-manifold-mounted) turbo outlet to the (Disco) intake would solve, or does the Disco intake end up pushing into/against a Defender bulkhead/firewall or otherwise making this impossible?

I wish I had some nice pics of each engine installed in their respective engine bays to compare (or some nice 3-view and ISO diagrams).

Mike, you have some diagrams of both - does the intake inlet (throttle body mount) location differ substantially?

Aside from my dreams of an easy 200tdi install, the next question would be: does the 300tdi from the Disco have different fittings than the Defender, or are they interchangeable? If the Disco is the same I can probably hunt one down locally.

Somewhere I've read that the 300tdi was less reliable than the 200tdi as well. Any pros/cons between the two engines?

[whistler110]

After looking at the parts diagrams, it looks like the two manifolds are reverse of each other. The Disco intake is above the exhaust while on the Def. the intake manifold is below the exhaust manifold.

The Disco & Def. 300 TDI's are the same engine. I'm not sure where you would hear that the 300 TDI's are less reliable, they had a timing belt cam issue with the early engines that caused them to prematurely eat belts but LR issued a repair kit for that.

The 200 TDI is more economical while the 300 TDI is more refined.

[jaherring]

Ah, ok, that makes sense (why there is a problem) though it must look strange to have the exhaust manifold on top and intake below..bizarre. I'd like to see a pic of that. Here's a pic of the engine on Ebay (believed to be from a Disco, sounds like it is from what you describe):

*******http://www.roversland.com/ebay/200TDi/f4.JPG*********

So, you really need both intake and exhaust manifolds together to 'convert' a Disco 200tdi to a Defender-installable engine.

Someone on a message board somewhere had definitely stated that the 200tdi was a stronger engine (if less powerful). *shrug* I have heard of the timing belt issue, though.

[mikeslandrover]

You wanted pics:grin
Here's the turbo

[mikeslandrover]

This is the Disco engine from Ebay

[mikeslandrover]

The turbo is in a completely different place, one of my mates fabricated a new exhaust from the turbo with some pretty sharp bends in it bud i think the steering would get in the way. You can see on the defender engine the turbo sits above the rocker cover, its still a close fit around the bulkhead:rolleyes

[mikeslandrover]

Here's a shot of the injection pump on my defender, not the same as a N/A diesel:eek:

[mikeslandrover]

Here's a close up of the turbo & heat shield

[mikeslandrover]

any other shots you'd like (short of taking the engine out)?:grin

[jaherring]

Thanks Mike. That's pretty revealing. That has to be the weirdest location for a turbo I've ever seen. I can't think of another engine which routes it's exhaust manifold above the intake manifold!

Heh you'd think the heat would melt the paint on your hood :)

[mikeslandrover]

Having the turbo up there keeps it away from water when wading ridiculously deeply.
The whole engine bay runs much cooler than a petrol engine. No cooking eggs on the bonnet:cool:

[Chris M-110]

Hi, I'm Chris, i'm from The Netherlands and I own a military '89 2.5na 110 (Royal Dutch Marines).



In the Dutch-LR-scene, the disco-2300tdi-upgrade is often discussed and I know of several people performing the swap, so it is defenately possible. I am planning to do the engine-swap in september. here's what i know about it:



The Disco's turbo is positioned higher and switching it for a Def in-and outlet and turbo, is extremely pricy. Having LHD-vehicles in Holland too, there is not enough room on the left-hand-side of the engine.



One way of dealing with the space-problem is turning the turbo one quarter and using a Saab-900- exhaust-pipe (only the first bit, the bend). U have to fiddle a bit with it, but it does seem to work.



As soon as I have pictures or a more detailed discription, I'l let you know.



BTW the exhaust-diameters are different, so you'l need to replace the entire exhaust



Toedeloe,

Chris



ps: have a look at my website: www.opwielen.nl (just follow the Land Rover)

[Chris M-110]

I've found a Brittish website about fitting a Disco 200tdi in a Defender (TD).

http://www.muddy-tyres.net/200conv.asp

keep in mind that the steering is on the wrong/right, hmm, .. opposite site

Toeleloe

Chris M-110