V8 Engine Oil - Synthetic vs Semi Synthetic

[nickt]

I was reading the "end of the Rover V8" article in the Spring 2004 LROI. They have an interview/article with Chris Crane from RPi Engineering, who's been working with these engines for 20 years.

The part I read with interest is this part:

"As for the best oil to use, that's a difficult one. 'The clearances and tolerences are exactly the same as on the original Buick Skylark engine: the tappets are still hydraulic and they definitly do not want fully synthetic oil. The oil is too skinny when it's cold.

'When you start it up with a fully synthetic oil, you're going to have a lot more valve-train clearance during the initial, important start-up period.'

Semi-synthetics may be okay, but Chris's preference is for something like Valvoline 20/50, because the detergent quality is good. Other quality 20/50 oils should be fine too.

'The other reason for using 20/50 is that it's what the engine was designed to run on, with its clearances and hydraulic tappets. There's no disadvantage with 20/50 oils for a road car, because it doesn't need the rapid warm-up period that a race car or TVR would want,' says Chris.

---
Interesting. So what do you think? I've always run synthetic oils in both the diesels and V8, but maybe I should be looking at using something less complex than the modern synthetics. Obviously, as usual, the frequency of oil changes probably has more bearing on what oil you use, when using quality oils anyway.

Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Nick.

[NomaD110]

I'd like to hear people opinion about this.

[Broncoduecer]

I hear alot of people run rotella, I run amosil.
Interesting find though.

[NomaD110]

What rotella is best for a d110 3.9 converted to a 4.2 with slightly hotter cam ported and polished?

[NomaD110]

So I've spent almost all day reading all sorts of opinions about the best oils to run in these defender gas engines with flat tappets. After everything I've read I feel that the best oil to run in them is:

Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40

It has the engine cleaning efficiency of a good synthetic, meets A3/B3, A3/B4, SN, SM, SL and has a HTHS of 3.9 which exceeds the 3.5 recommended performance for flat tappet style engines. Anyone want to call BS on this or do you think its a good oil to run in a new 4000 mile 3.9 converted to 4.2 engine?

Cheers

[rover4x4]

Mobil 10w40 is really good, I used it for a number of years, it looks really good on paper. I am now using Amsoil 10w40 it has a high zinc package which is nice. Its cheaper than the Mobil if you buy a case. They have taken a lot of of the additives out of the rotella that made it ideal for the RV8

[Lindy]

Just switched from Mobil 1 synthetic to Rotella T

[carlosz]

I have allways used mobil 1 or castrol full synthetic, the blends as explained to me by an instructor in an automotive class for technicians, are not regulated so brand "a" may have a 50/50 blend while brand "b" may have less of the ideal 50%... in that regard, he explained rather than use a market blend, the user would be better off using regular oil and a synthetic additive of their choice.
sometime ago I spent a little over 2 yrs overhauling eaton, rockwell and mack heavy duty drivetrain components, the ones which used non synthetic oils would come in with failures due to fatigue caused by improper lubrication during times of stress which on a heavy duty truck component is constant, normal failure at 150,000 miles or less.
the units which had used synthetic lubricants would last well into 500,000 miles and the components would show a very even and unstressed wear pattern.
I know this post will give rise to a huge controversy on syntec vrs. regular, the findings and results I post are based on my personal unbiased non scientific findings not what an article may print.
so to each their own.
based on personal experience, I can tell you my 78 911 turbo did not like synthetic, it would burn it at an alarming rate specially when flogged, but my 88 944 turbo loved it.
my current 97 honda has used synthetic since new and at 150,000 miles has never needed a single valve lash adjustment and runs very quiet. my 95 classic received a custom built 4.6 4 yrs and 60k miles ago, nothing but synthetic no leaks so far and still giving me 14 to 16 mpg, while my friend begun using synthetic on his 04 d2 and his 40k mile engine begun to develop accelerated wear to the point of engine failure.. coincidence maybe.
I still use it and reccomend it.

[evilfij]

Say what you will about dino oil being better, but you could eat off the inside of my LWB which has 190k and has been run on full synthetic since ~30k.

[2411D90]

I'm with evilfij on this one. My one-owner '95 D90 has had nothing but high-end synthetic oil (mostly Amsoil, but sometimes Redline or Royal Purple) since its first oil change. It has nearly 300,000 miles and other than changing the water pump a few years ago, I have had zero issues with the engine. It doesn't burn any oil, and runs great. I recently switched exclusively to non-ethanol gasoline, and now it runs even better, along with getting a couple more MPG's.

According to the experts, the most effective synthetics are the "esther-based" ones such as the three I mentioned (of course, they're also the most expensive) rather than the "wax-based" synthetics which includes most of the others. Additionally, the high-end oils also include the zinc package that rover4x4 mentioned.

[budzny]

Im happy with Amsoil oil and filter for my trucks and also Amsoil oil to my 11 year old pontoon boat. :)

Sal

[nathanwind]

I recently switched exclusively to non-ethanol gasoline, and now it runs even better, along with getting a couple more MPG's.

Curious, where are you getting non-ethanol gas from? My understanding is its not really available anymore. I just went through this with our local marina gas for my boat this summer, and they said with the EPA crackdowns you can't get non-ethanol.

[2411D90]

This site shows ethanol-free gas availability by state:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA

[NomaD110]

Wait a minute...I think I change my mind on the best oil money can buy for these land rover 93 d-110 v8 engines. Who wants to agree that Redline 10w-40 is the best? I got turned off by Mobile 1 and similar API certified oils because of the lack of additives needed for the flat tappet style engines. Anyone believe that Redline is harder on seals or is that a myth?

Read this:
http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

Redline Data:
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor%20Oil%20Product%20Data.pdf

[nathanwind]

Sort of related question...do the newer 2006+ LR3 motors have flat tappets?

------ Follow up post added January 16th, 2012 12:28 AM ------

This site shows ethanol-free gas availability by state:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=WA

Nice...but unfortunately checked VA and there's literally nothing in our area. Bummer.

[Rocketman]

I have an original owner 95 D90 with 100k on the clock. I have run nothing but synthetic in it since new, either Mobil 1 10-40 or Castrol 5-50. At 100k, only engine work has been a new water pump and new throttle position sensor. I started adding a ZDDP additive a few years ago.

[rover4x4]

Don't over think it, the Mobil 10w40 is just about perfect for the RV8, the Amsoil is perfect. If you want a non synthetic valvoline VR1 is a good choice. Use redline in your transmission

The failure on the 04 DII is likely unrelated to the oil that was being used, the new rovers use Jaguar engines most likely has a roller valvetrain. 2004 was the last year for the might RV8

[nathanwind]

I have an original owner 95 D90 with 100k on the clock. I have run nothing but synthetic in it since new, either Mobil 1 10-40 or Castrol 5-50. At 100k, only engine work has been a new water pump and new throttle position sensor. I started adding a ZDDP additive a few years ago.

Where do you get your ZDDP additive from and what brand do you use?

[rover4x4]

Speedshops, summit or jegs or you can buy an oil with a zinc package already in it.

[NomaD110]

Don't over think it, the Mobil 10w40 is just about perfect for the RV8, the Amsoil is perfect. If you want a non synthetic valvoline VR1 is a good choice. Use redline in your transmission

The failure on the 04 DII is likely unrelated to the oil that was being used, the new rovers use Jaguar engines most likely has a roller valvetrain. 2004 was the last year for the might RV8

When you guys say 10W40 you are referring to the Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40. This contains the seal conditioner and the "extra anti-wear additive". Do you think the seal conditioner is perhaps not advised on a bran new motor? A Mobil 1 rep says it doesn't matter. He also recommends the 0W-40 over the 10W-40 as it is no thinner then the 10W-40 but provides great start up protection in cold environments. He said that it too contains the same levels of anti wear additives as the High Mileage 10W-40. The issue I have is that they will not tell you an exact value so you don't know if it's an adequate amount or not.

The Redline oil seems to have none of these compromises as it doesn't even try to comply with the API standards that are limiting these anti wear agents. It has the highest levels of anti-wear agent that was originally expected for our engines. Why deal with additives when you can get the oil that has the balanced level out of the bottle?

[rover4x4]

Yes the high mileage. The Amsoil has around 1400ppm zinc, they recently released the zrod series which is around 1450 1500 ppm. I don't know much about the redline other than the MTL gearlube.

It doesn't matter how high of a shear rating or zinc an oil has if you don't change it.

[Jon_Winningham]

Well I guess it has been some time since our last oil discussion.
I enjoy a good oil talk especially since I have a new engine. The LR mechanic that did my 4.6 conversion said to use only Castrol 10W-30 dino. He believes in regular oil change intervals, and dino does not adversely effect the rear-main seals Rover uses.

By far the most detailed and exhausted site dedicated to oil is:
click here---> Bob is the Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/)

[NomaD110]

Well clearly we are all meticulous about changing oils. Proper shear value is worthless without the anti-wear packages. Any reason why someone thinks that redline oil will cause more oil leaks then the Mobil 1 or even conventional oil? Why would Dino oil keep the rear main seal healthier then synthetic stuff? I'd like to hear the experts on here hash all of the out.

[rover4x4]

There are no experts on here. Search all of this has been debated. Search on the discoweb there was some scientific discussion on this a while back.

I find that people switch to a synthetic expecting them to be a miracle product. My engine stopped leaking when I went to the Mobil 10w40 HM. If you have a newly built engine why would yo7 be worried about the rear main or cross seals? How much does the engine leak?

Conventional oil is fine, I maintain a RRC with 220k original cam and bottom end, it leaks a little but is fine. It spent most of its life on 10w40 castrol but last 5 years has been using rotella. Just change it often and use quality filters.

[J. Andrew]

So wouldn't adding ZDDP to everyone's favorite anti-sludge Mobil 0w40 be the ticket? Royal purple also has their HPS line, which as incr zinc that is big among the 50s/60s muscle car guys for flat tappet engines.

[NomaD110]

Has anyone successfully run RedLine in an older Land Rover for years without issues, leaks etc?

[rover4x4]

Why would you pay 9-10$ for a quart of oil then pay 10-15 for a bottle of juice to dump in it

[J. Andrew]

Not trying to start a pissing match w/ you but Mobil 1 0w40 can be had for $8/quart, and the additives i've seen $8 will treat 12 quarts. Buick nailheads are notorious sludgebuilders, so replacing the zinc-phosphate that Mobil 1 removed to meet API (to prevent hurting the cats) seems like improving an already near perfect product for this application.

[NomaD110]

Additives of any kind are stupid. Guys seriously who gives a crap about price of oil! If you can afford to fill your rover with gas, you can treat your rover to the best oil made every 3000 miles. So in the arguments of this thread leave price out of it...get down to the facts. So far I proclaim that the best oil in the world for a rover V8 is RedLine 0W-40....at least on paper.

[rover4x4]

Well run it for 100k then pull the cam and valve covers and report back.

[NomaD110]

Will do. Honestly we are likely splitting hairs here between two good synthetics. I just feel that the Redline is more focused to our needs. I'm surprised that this didn't start world war three.

[Hammertime]

I bought my 90 with 38000 miles on it. I ran Rotella 15-40 in it up till about 65,000 with out a hitch. When someone talked me into synthetic. One oil change interval I switched back to Rotella. With the Rotella I never had to add oil between changes. with the synthetic I lost a quart before the oil was due for a change. Has been fine ever since I swithched back. I run synthectic in my new 6.7 Powerstroke and the BMW cycles and could not be happier. But not in the Defender or the Disco .

[Broncoduecer]

How about the interval? Amosil says its good for a year, or 15k or whatever it is. I usually like 5k with synthetics and always 3k with Dino.

Alot of the 3k interval was due to the quality of oil I thought.

I guess everyone has their opinions.

[nathanwind]

Likewise 3k Dino, 5k Synthetics here.

[97-D90-736]

How about the interval? Amosil says its good for a year, or 15k or whatever it is. I usually like 5k with synthetics and always 3k with Dino.

Alot of the 3k interval was due to the quality of oil I thought.

I guess everyone has their opinions.


I am sure the oil is good for the 15k, my worry has always been the filter....

[don]

Based on searches I've done here and some various readings over the years I use Mobil 1 0W-40.

Besides the properties of the oil used which is obviously very important, from my limited KB it seems these V8's can get "dirty" pretty easily so starting with getting the internals as clean as possible for a baseline and keeping them clean might be just as important as which oil you are going to run.

I've adapted the a Ron/evilfij tip of swapping filters every 500-1,000 miles. It seems the Mobil 1 likes to "clean" as the oil doesn't stay light golden brown for too long for me but swapping the filter (and the needed quart) keeps it from going black. Then I'll do a complete swap every 3k-5k. For me the 90 doesn't put on as many miles so depending on road trips I usually go by timeframe.

Another Ron/evilfij tip was to do the rear cross seals: http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2052 This might also help in people that have leaks when going to synthetic? Mines been dry for the past 2 years (other than some pesky leak from the tranny that makes a mess all over).

I posted up 2 years ago (damn, time flies) about sludge and my search for getting the internals clean to start with: http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24122 (http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24122)




------ Follow up post added January 17th, 2012 10:01 AM ------

I am sure the oil is good for the 15k, my worry has always been the filter....

So to add to the discussion - which filter works best? I mostly use NAPA Gold 1068 as I can get a couple when I go to NAPA to pick up the Mobil 1. But doing it every 1,000 as mentioned above does it really matter?

[rover4x4]

I like the Napa 1452, its a little bigger than the 1068, I can get a little over a quart in it

[don]

I like the Napa 1452, its a little bigger than the 1068, I can get a little over a quart in it

I tried a 1452 before but the price was close to twice the 1068 (edit: $12.49 vs. $6.49 according to napaonline). Since I am swapping filters a little more frequently I figure the 1068 would be a better move for me. But agree the 1452 is certainly bigger/more volume - the specs between the 2 look very similiar otherwise.

[evilfij]

As far as filters, I stuck with genuine land rover until I ran out and then went to motorcraft FL1a which is what rover told us to use when filters went on backorder. Relatively cheap, easy to find, and seems to do a good job. Napa, Wix etc. should be fine, just make sure it has the anti-drainback valve or whatever it is called.

I am glad you liked my tips. The quick filter changes were only when switching to synthetic and the gunk is getting flushed out. After that, no real reason to keep up the quick changes on them unless they are heavy when removed.

[don]

Both the 1452 and 1068 have a "Silicon Anti-Drain Back Valve" according to napaonline

I do enjoy the tips - they make sense to me and I know you've been around Rovers (and vehicles) for a long time so for me it is easily worth a shot. I am still doing the quick filter changes as the filters are still pretty heavy. There hasn't been a lot of miles on my 90 over the past year due to fixing things and less road/4x4 trips.

[evilfij]

Makes sense they are still heavy as your engine seemed to have a lot of gunk.

[RANGEROVERSURFER]

Hello, I just wanted to add my own experience with running Rotella Dino Triple T White Jug versus Rotella Synthetic Blue Jug. I have been running Rotella Dino for 2 years and I immediatly noticed an increase in compression, I live on the side of a mountain , here in Anchorage. We often get below zero in the winter, so I wanted to try the Synthetic. well I did, immediately I noticed a huge loss in Engine Power, the motor was louder, valvetrain noise etc. overall I changed back within 2 days. I park outside and have a block heater, battery blanket in addtion to an Oil Pan heater. i let the Rig warm up for about 20 min in the morning and off I go. I have approx 125,000 miles on the Motor and notice that the Oil is black by the time I go to change it at 2500 miles or so. I had the Oil analyzed at Blackstone labs and they gave it a major thumbs up! I am thinking that the High detergent and the fact that it has ZDDP as well as being an Old Style motor and that Rover V-8's run dirty to begin with. I respect that every body has their opinion of what works for them as such. Could My Rover use new Valve Cover Gaskets, yes, does it need new Exhaust manifold gaskets, yes,but I tighten them down every so often. My Rig is lifted, running 265/75/16 BFG's , with Flowmaster Exhaust and it runs really smooth when I ran the Rotella Synthetic the engine was so low on power and noisy, I was getting really concerned. So the 15W40 works really well for me year round...Thanks for allowing me to reply, disregard the Shell Sticker, I don't work for them.

Tony

[nathanwind]

Tony:

Nice post, thanks for passing it along. So you're not adding any ZDDP to the Rotella white jug, correct? Just the inherent ZDDP that is in the oil itself?

[RANGEROVERSURFER]

No I am not adding any additional ZDDP. I actually have 2 RR Classics and run Rotella Triple T in both of them. I see the advantages and researched and came across the -25 below F Pour rating etc. overall the driving that I do, and the Alaska climate as well as climbing a Mountain year round, I will not change over. to be honest the only downside is that the 02 Sensors or Cats may not last for ever, but way cheaper than an engine rebuild. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,

Tony

[nathanwind]

Cool...I likewise already run Rotella in every "older" car I have...but likewise don't add ZDDP so was curious if your tests were with or without an additive. But I'm a Rotella 15W40 fan already...

[97-D90-736]

Backing Tony on the Rotella T White Jug. Oil pressue is slightly higher now and more consistent between warm up and operating temp. My only complaint is that I cant find it in QTS. So I have to do 4 oil changes before I only have to buy 1 Jug. That is ~ 2 years for me.

[geoellis]

to be honest the only downside is that the 02 Sensors or Cats may not last for ever,


Tony, thanks for sharing your experience. What do you mean by the phrase above?

[nathanwind]

No I am not adding any additional ZDDP. I actually have 2 RR Classics and run Rotella Triple T in both of them. I see the advantages and researched and came across the -25 below F Pour rating etc. overall the driving that I do, and the Alaska climate as well as climbing a Mountain year round, I will not change over. to be honest the only downside is that the 02 Sensors or Cats may not last for ever, but way cheaper than an engine rebuild. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks,

Tony

Ps - any idea of the actual ZDDP count in Rotella? Did the tests you had done state this?

[RANGEROVERSURFER]

You bring up a very good point, Thanks I will have both Rigs Oil retested in the future sometime and have a complete analysis of the Oil specifically requesting the Oil be tested for ZDDP content. I was going to order the additive from British Pacific Ltd in CA, they carry some, made by Redline. I am actually doing a restoration on the 1990 SWB RR Classic Eastnor Green. I will be posting a Thread on the LRR Forum soon. They test for various metals , etc. I will find the Analysis results and post the numbers, maybe it will help.

Thanks,

Tony

[nathanwind]

I've heard that the current ZDDP for Rotella is in the 1100ppm range, down from the 1400-1500ppm it used to be. But would be curious to know for sure.

[rover4x4]

I think its even less due to the new clean diesel technology. I talked to a guy that works for a rental company and he was told by manufacturers. Not to use CJ4 rated oils in hydraulic systems. They previously used rotella.

[RANGEROVERSURFER]

I located the Oil Report. Zinc is showing at 853 PPM / Phosphorus 823 PPM / Boron 37 PPM / Calcium 1953. At some point in the future I will start using a Zinc additive and have the Oil sample tested to confirm the Higher ZDDP Content. But at this Point I am still very satisfied with Rotella White Triple T and will continue using it. next year I will have the Engine Rebuilt and will share my findings with D-90. It will be interesting to see if there is an excessive amount of sludge build-up and wear.

Thanks,

Tony