clutchless shifting

[isleofman]

My 17 year old son came home yesterday and told me he wants to master the art of clutchless shifting or floating as it is also called. Instantly I felt my insides crunch and grind. I know it can be done, that truck drivers do it, not to mention teen boys who do it for the "cool" factor (umm we're talking about shifting gears here!!) .
Due to his lack of driving experience and $$$ for any would be repairs, I told him NOT to do it. He reminded me the truck has non-synch gears and it's a skill he has to learn just in case!! . I reminded him that he's been driving solo for one week, the truck has a clutch for a reason, and that so far, he only owns the equivalent of a door, tire and the brake pedal on the truck. But of course I know nothing so I shifted into neutral and then shut off.
So here I am curious as to some of your thoughts on clutchless shifting. I need to brush up on my knowledge in order to be better prepared for the next round of verbal warfare....not that I plan on changing my mind of course. The truck in question is a 1965 Series IIA.

[huck1974]

Clutch master went out not too long ago. Had to do that to get home. Its not hard to do but kinda dumb. Its not a big rig. Not meant to do that. Tell him to buy his own damn car to grind the gears in. :)
RPM matching so that everything spins at the same speed.









My 17 year old son came home yesterday and told me he wants to master the art of clutchless shifting or floating as it is also called. Instantly I felt my insides crunch and grind. I know it can be done, that truck drivers do it, not to mention teen boys who do it for the "cool" factor (umm we're talking about shifting gears here!!) .
Due to his lack of driving experience and $$$ for any would be repairs, I told him NOT to do it. He reminded me the truck has non-synch gears and it's a skill he has to learn just in case!! . I reminded him that he's been driving solo for one week, the truck has a clutch for a reason, and that so far, he only owns the equivalent of a door, tire and the brake pedal on the truck. But of course I know nothing so I shifted into neutral and then shut off.
So here I am curious as to some of your thoughts on clutchless shifting. I need to brush up on my knowledge in order to be better prepared for the next round of verbal warfare....not that I plan on changing my mind of course. The truck in question is a 1965 Series IIA.

[airbornrover]

Id tell your kid not to worry about. Thats what AAA and friends are for. As for shifting without the clutch, its a jee weezy kind of thing. Only done with muscle cars, high end cars, and really big trucks. Ive seen it done with finesse and brute.

[huck1974]

Id tell your kid not to worry about. Thats what AAA and friends are for. As for shifting without the clutch, its a jee weezy kind of thing. Only done with muscle cars, high end cars, and really big trucks. Ive seen it done with finesse and brute.


I guess AAA and friends buy transmissions after grinding and forcing gears while practicing a useless art. Name a muscle car or high end car with a manual transmission that it would be a good idea to shift without the use of a clutch. I will seriously prematurely wear anything not designed to shift without the clutch. Thats why the thing has a clutch.

[Buckon37s]

Not to mention, its not faster if you know what your doing.

Tell him to learn how to drive on two wheels for long stretches. Thats cool. Nobody cares if you skip the clutch.

[globallandrovers]

Better to teach him to Double de clutch on those older rovers.

[Ren Ching]

I do it sometimes when my clutch knee gets tired. More so on the series, not so much on my precious r380 :)

Like Julian says, make sure the kid knows how to double clutch properly. Going up from 1st to 2nd isn't too hard.Shifting down from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st is not as easy.

[GYM]

Only done with muscle cars...

??? No way. (Not on my 40 year old Mopar A-833 4 speed trannys, anyway.)

[JimC]

Its a useful fact to know that you can change gears without the clutch when the revs are matched, and matching revs is a good skill for both performance driving and general driving skill, but what he wants to do is impress his buddies.

If he wants to do this kind of stuff, make him save up and go to a driving school down at SIR or something. Upgrading the driver is a money well spent, especially for young drivers.

[cgalpin]

If the need ever arises he can learn then. Besides he'll have sufficient motivation and if he screws up the transmission at least he'll have it out :D

[JimC]

Not that they'll teach him how to shift without the clutch, but they'll show him what handling and control are all about.

[evilfij]

In my series I rarely use the clutch from 1st to 2nd (ok, I never drive the thing but when I do ....) as it is non-synchro. He should use the clutch from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th (3rd and 4th have synchros) and should always use the clutch and match revs on the downshift. If you have an SIII transmission or R380/LT77, you should always use the clutch.

Clutchless shifting teaches you to match revs so that you will not wear synchros when you shift with the clutch. It is all about feel and timing. You have to shift SLOW and wait for the revs to drop (rovers have heavy flywheels). For example, my "new" 1994 has a badly worn second synchro. I time it perfect and it never grinds at all because I know when and how fast to shift. If you shift too fast or too slow, it crunches.

Ron

[GYM]

If he wants to do this kind of stuff, make him save up and go to a driving school down at SIR or something.

There's an acronym from the past! Jim, you've been away from home for too long.

Lee; JimC's suggestion is an excellent one, but unfortunately, Seattle International Raceway (SIR) is no more.
Several years ago the track management changed and if you want to look it up, it is now known as Pacific Raceways, (off Hwy 18 in Kent.)...

[61rover]

I highly recommend signing him up for this: http://www.streetsurvival.org/

There are several sessions coming up in your area. We enrolled our son and he loved it. They teach all the stuff you never learn in drivers ed. It's partly sponsored by BMW, but there was every car imaginable there. One girl had an 80s Wagoneer. They put spacers on it to widen the footprint and ran her through the same stuff as the sports cars.

[zimm]

buy an automatic, and tell him to go play with 1,2, and D.

[Rugbier]

I've been driving an M3 for the last couple of weeks ( while Shrek gets his tanning ) and call me OLD, LAZY, but I clutchless shift all the time after 2nd gear ( all the way to 6th and down to 2nd ).

In principle, no grinding if done properly. now dead start , better have a good battery and let it rip

Many moons ago, had a Countach and was easier to drive it with no clutch than the heavy pedal every gear

[landrovered]

I learned to shift without a clutch in a Renault, it was a beater and I imagine we didn't do a lot of harm. Once I was driving our family on a trip in our then new Mazda 626. We stoped for lunch and the slave on the clutch took a dump. I drove the car and family the rest of the two hour trip home in the NC mountains with no clutch. Everyone was amazed that it could be done. Of course they were a little wierded out the first time I started it in gear.

It is a good skill to have.

[isleofman]

Thanks for all the feedback. He has been to Pacific Raceways before to watch a friend's Dad do the road course and was quite eager to try it for himself. Something worth checking into.
I've only seen clutchless shifting in person a couple of times. While my friend explained the technique, i honestly wasn't paying super close attention to engine and rev sounds or how fast/slow to move the stick. Is it possible to explain rev matching and stick shift speed over the internet? I'm guessing I might have to call my friend so we can go for a little drive...while the kid's at school....because for him the answer is still NO!!:grin

[evilfij]

When you go from first to second, you pull it out of first into neutral when you let off the gas and put it into 2nd at the exact point that that revs are where they would be based on the speed of the wheels.

So, for example, if at 20mph you would cruise at 3000rpm in first and 2200rpm in second, you would let off at 3000rpm, pull the lever to neutral and then slowly put it into second at say 2100rpm (to compensate for losing a bit of road speed on the shift).

It should be completely silent if you do it right, too fast or too slow it crunches. edit: actually, shift too slow it won't go in, too fast it crunches.

Ron

[cgalpin]

And likewise when you downshift, you let off the gas, pull it out of gear, tap the gas to get the revs up, and push into the gear when the revs match. Keys is to get the feel for the revs or you'll hear a lot of grinding. if I wasn't so busy today I'd run out for a drive and make a video of it. I googled and you can find some on you-tube, but none of them impressed me (and they were all little cars with easy to shift transmissions).

[Stmpede]

I have done it a couple times just for the sake of it, and I have had to move defenders with dead clutches around at the shop this way, but what I have found works best (especially for those who are new to it) is to pull the shifter out of gear slowly and into neutral. Then, if you press gently on the shifter, as if putting it into the gear of your choice, it will simply slide into gear like butter when the revs match properly.

If you are up-shifting, you just need to wait a brief moment for the revs to drop. If you are down-shifting, you just need to blip the throttle a little to match the revs. I am not sure if this method causes any additional wear to the synchros, but it allows you to change gears very smoothly without the clutch, and without any grinding.

[carlosz]

I have been a shop monkey for 20 plus years and have done my share of clutchless driving on cars, I hold a CDL

'commercial drivers licence" and have driven big rigs for about a million miles.... there is some similarity but not all applies, for instance the big rig lends it self to speed shifting, if done properly it makes it sound as if it was an automatic.... with the car it is a bit trickie to find the right rpm range and mantain the horse power/torque to keep from stalling and you cannot do speed shifting.
sometimes i do it just because im lazy and dont feel like streching my left leg.

[isleofman]

And likewise when you downshift, you let off the gas, pull it out of gear, tap the gas to get the revs up, and push into the gear when the revs match. Keys is to get the feel for the revs or you'll hear a lot of grinding. if I wasn't so busy today I'd run out for a drive and make a video of it. I googled and you can find some on you-tube, but none of them impressed me (and they were all little cars with easy to shift transmissions).
awesome...now i just have to get rid of my son (not permanently of course) so i can give it a bash - otherwise i'd never hear the end of it. A matter of do as I say and not as I do.
Charles, I'd be interested to see the video if you're up to making one. no rush. my son showed me the youtube videos but i want to see the real deal with a real truck. thanks!

[huck1974]

This thread is funny!

I don't like little metal bits from ooooops shift coming out in the oil. If I threw the vette into gear without using the clutch at about 80, I probably would break something or go for a real fun ride at 600plus torque.

Good to know for emergency use though.

[rover4x4]

Its hard for me to shift without the clutch in my D-90. I never missed a gear in the old peterbilt or the late model International at the drilling company. We had an old Autocar with the split H I could never get the hang of that thing.

[Rugbier]

... If I threw the vette into gear without using the clutch at about 80, I probably would break something or go for a real fun ride ....h.

Shane,

There is the reason why you'll break something :)


sorry couldn't resist

[globallandrovers]

I drive WW2 trucks as a hobby, british 10 ton diesels with a crash box and american 2.5 ton GMC's which are petrol and also have crash boxes. You change gear differently in the Diesel vehicles, its a much slower gear change. Last year I drove a 1944 British 10 tonner with a diesel engine and a Crash box, no PAS, No suspention etc very basic to normandy in France to commerate the 65th aniversary of D-Day, on the trip we did over 2000miles all with Double de clutch changes, I did all the driving.

[huck1974]

Shane,

There is the reason why you'll break something :)


sorry couldn't resist

Thats true. The ten bolt is not as strong as it should be. :)

[isleofman]

wish i could drive with some of you who really know how to do it...get the "nuts and bolts" on doing it just right. But alas, you all seem to live too far away.

[cgalpin]

I threw up a quick video of me driving my 110 without the clutch this morning. It might not be that helpful in terms of learning, but it at least shows you it being done in a land rover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QIvM2lBwcs

Take note of my goodie-2-shoes 14 year old getting on my case for getting into 4th gear in a residential street :grin

hth
charles

[isleofman]

Woooo freekin bloody Hoooo!!! Charles, either you're a brilliant youtube teacher or i'm a natural born clutchless shifter with perfect pitch:grin My kids would say the former rather than the latter!
I hopped in the truck when the family was out and every shift went in smoothly, like a hot knife through butter - no grind, crunch or clank. That was shifting up so still have to tackle down.
Thanks for the video. Tell your 14 year old excellent cinematography and side commentary. I watched it about 5 times before attempting it myself. Dang, gotta keep this under wraps so can't even brag to my son...

[cgalpin]

Haha glad it helped. That was take 1 on the way to the grocery store. We reviewed it and I realized you couldn't see my foot on the accelerator pedal so I gave her some direction and we took another take on the way hope. It showed my feet better except she held the camera sideways and also had a slight grind downshifting one time (along with a "oh thats bad" from my daughter) so I decided not to use that one. :grin

[John_Karlsson]

Woooo freekin bloody Hoooo!!! Charles, either you're a brilliant youtube teacher or i'm a natural born clutchless shifter with perfect pitch:grin My kids would say the former rather than the latter!
I hopped in the truck when the family was out and every shift went in smoothly, like a hot knife through butter - no grind, crunch or clank. That was shifting up so still have to tackle down.
Thanks for the video. Tell your 14 year old excellent cinematography and side commentary. I watched it about 5 times before attempting it myself. Dang, gotta keep this under wraps so can't even brag to my son...

There's another way to look at this. Now that you have learned to do it, you can teach your son. He'll probably tell all his friends (and maybe some of yours) that you are the coolest mom in the world.

[isleofman]

the first time i watched the video i found myself wanting to see who parked their car in the middle of the road! 2nd time i watched your foot closely and also the speed at which you shifted the gear lever. After that i had to close my eyes and listen to the revs cause i kept trying to see out the window:ohmy. As for the grind, you had to demonstrate what NOT to do so that was good too. with all the educational video taking I'm sure your daughter will be an excellent driver in the very very near future!!! now i'm wondering what other little moves I can learn. any suggestions???

------ Follow up post added January 24th, 2010 07:39 PM ------

There's another way to look at this. Now that you have learned to do it, you can teach your son. He'll probably tell all his friends (and maybe some of yours) that you are the coolest mom in the world.

nah, sadly my son thinks i'm the mother from hell. Apparently, my parenting style is archaic and the "Little House on the Prairie" days are long gone.
I'll give it a couple of weeks then show him how. In the mean time I guess I'll carry the title of "meanie mom" with pride!

[cgalpin]

with all the educational video taking I'm sure your daughter will be an excellent driver in the very very near future!!!
She's actually pretty good already as I have been letting her drive on trails and private property for a few years now. She drives RHD stick too!