New Rover 9in almost ready

[Buckon37s]

Check out the Rover 9in almost ready to drop!

[Buckon37s]

Another

[Buckon37s]

one more

[Buckon37s]

last one

[rover4x4]

:eek: that gonna be a high pinion diff?

[Buckon37s]

Nope,

It is a little known fact that the high pinion stuff is an 8.8in R+P. Strong and people have had good results but a regular 9in many feel is as strong as the D-60 r+p, just a whole heck of a lot higher off the ground and lighter.

[rover4x4]

ahhh..

[TwisteD90]

Looks sweet David :) Now let's see which one will break first your 9" or my Salisbury :)

BTW, what size gears are you going with?

[Buckon37s]

"Looks sweet David Now let's see which one will break first your 9" or my Salisbury"

Well,

If you go with 40's, yours, if you go with 37s, mine. With the power I have and small measuring 37's it will be very hard for me to break this. Especially with all the high tech junk. As to gears we are kinda stuck between 4.37s and 4.56. I don't trailer so I want to be able to cruise at 70 without winding the motor.

[redrover]

Hey Buck/David, what kind of contol arm setup are you fabricating? A-arm and control arms ,or 4-link? Looks sweet.

[Buckon37s]

Hey,

Do you mean for the front or the rear? The rear is going to follow a stock set up with all new links made out of some nearly impossible to break junk. Very beefey. The front, well that is top secret. Part of it rymes with soilover. I will post picts soon.

[comac90]

i've had a few discussions lately with people trying to convince me that a ford 9" is as strong or stronger than a 60.

so far, i'm not convinced. so, please, if someone has a good argument, convince me....

the 9" does have a pinion support bearing (which is a great design, i might add), but that only helps with pinion deflection being a cause breakage. everything about a 60 (or Sals) r&p is bigger. assuming same materials, a 9" is going to break before a 60. anyway you cut it, a 60 is stronger. ...&, FWIW, all things being equal, my opinion is a 60 will handle 40s as well as a 9" will handle 37s.

so just for the record, here are the specs of each.
Dana 60
Ring Gear Diameter: 9 3/4
Pinion Shaft Diameter: 1.625"
Ring Gear Bolts: (12) RH Thread 1/2" X 20
Pinion Splines: 29
Cover Bolts: 10

Ring Gear Diameter: 9"
Pinion Shaft Diameter: 1.313"
Ring Gear Bolts: (10) RH Thread 7/16" X 20
Pinion Splines: 28
Cover Bolts: 10

i, also, don't get this thing of lightweight axles being a big issue on a rockcrawler outside of competition (& even then i have some questions to a point). yes, the OVERALL weight of the vehicle may make a difference as to whether or not you'll get over something. but, higher unsprung weights lower your vehicle's CG & gives you better stability.

also, you generally don't want those higher weights in the wheels because of the increased angular momentum & decrease in perceived engine power it causes .... especially on a rover. that only leaves the axles as the 'good' place to "add" unsprung weight without affecting performance.

anyone got any insight to impart?
T

[Buckon37s]

I pulled this off the web.

Why you need a Ford 9"

Although the basic bigger is better and size matters points are still strong arguments in the wheeling community, there is more to the Ford 9" than its size. The pinion is larger than the standard Dana 60, and that fact alone means more strength and less chance of damage. The Ford 9" ring gear is also thicker (although smaller in diameter) than the Dana 60 ring gear, which again, means more strength and less worry. Ground clearance is another advantage to a 9", and a shaved 9" has even greater clearance, Click here to see a comparison. Go to any NHRA, SCORE, NASCAR, or Local dirt track event and look under the rear of all of the vehicles. There is a reason drag racers and hotrod enthusiasts alike have trusted the Ford 9" for years, and here are a few of them.
Note: despite its size, the Ford 9" system is lighter than the Dana system.


Left to right: Dana 30, Dana 44, Dana 60, Ford 9" pinions On comparison of the pinions one of the first things you will notice is the additional pinion support extending from (in this picture) the lower end of the pinion. This feature helps reduce the level of stress on the pinion.
Note: the Ford 9" pinion enters the ring gear at a lower point, which also provides better strength and stability than the standard Dana 60.

The angle of the teeth on the Ford 9" pinion is at a greater degree than that of the Dana series. This creates a larger contact area on the ring gear and greater tooth engagement; the area that stress is divided over is larger which means less stress on any particular area.
Left to right: Dana 30, Dana 44, Dana 60, Ford 9" pinions

Top comparison of main caps The main caps in the differential are another strong point of the Ford 9" system. They are the main link between the differential and the case on a Ford 9", or the housing and the case on a Dana. Notice the difference in size and structure between the cast iron of the Dana and the forged steel of the Ford 9" main cap.
The modular design of the Ford 9" is an often overlooked advantage. The main caps on a Dana design are an integrated part of the entire axle housing. This means that if a Dana main cap fails, the whole housing becomes worthless. The Ford drop out 3rd member (pictured below) contains the ring and pinion and the differential held in by the main caps. If the main cap fails you can replace the 3rd member and you are back on the trail.
Side comparison of main caps

Nodular Ford 3rd Member

...

Technical note on the rear Dana 60 reverse ring and pinion system
The problem with the 'Dana 60 reverse ring and pinion in the rear' setup is that it is literally being run backwards. These gear sets are loading on the coast side of the gear teeth when run backwards. Assuming that the axle assembly is delivering 5500 foot pounds of torque to the axles (the Dana 60's official maximum rating), the separation force exerted on the driver side carrier bearing is approximately 7300 pounds. That is ~175% of the load that would be found if the axle was used as Dana/Spicer designed it. This extreme load can cause many problems.


This is a good 9in arguement that I found. This arguement is a lot like Ford vs Chevy, which is better and there are arguements on both sides. Unsprung weight is almost never good. Especially with underpowered Defenders. Tire weight is a fighting matter. Many comp guys fill thier tires with water or sand to increase the tire weight. People should keep in mind that the most successful rock crawler of all time Jon Bundrant is running custom 9's.

[TwisteD90]

Salisbury Dana60 or Ford 9" it really doesn't matter. The point is there are two guys in the market that gave us an option besides modifying the stock D90 housing and I appreciate that :)

NSO and Rover Tracks guys keep up the awesome work :)

[Buckon37s]

Totally right,

And it is important to note that my axle will be weaker than a d-60 with 35 spline axles. I have 31 spline 1.37in axles so those are the weak link for me. It will be way stronger than a stock d-60 but weaker than a pimped out d-60. Billsters is every bit as strong as any D-60 except for maybe the camo 60/40

[rover4x4]

just about all the drag racers I have talked to run 9" thats most def worth something. do the 60's have c clips?

[Buckon37s]

I'll get back to you on that, turns out my house might be close to being burned down so I gotta go! :pissed

[comac90]

dave-
those are some great points & help to increase the general knowledge base here. i'll respond to some of those when i have some more time, but a couple of quick things....

first, be safe. you're in our thoughts & i hope everything works out with your house.

2nd, no, 60s do not have c-clips.

3rd, there was a mention of NSO & RT. its in no way my intent for this discussion to come across as a NSO vs RT thing. I personally know KC. He makes an awesome product & is a great guy. I almost even bought a Rover9 myself.

it IS my intent, though, to get some solid understanding of the differences between the 2 most popular axle conversions being done on ALL 4WD vehicles right now ... the Dana 60 & the 9".

T

[Buckon37s]

Thanks a lot Troy,

It turns out the winds took the fires out east and north from my house. I was never that close. For a second there the news said that the wind was blowing hard west and the largest fire at that time was about 4 miles east from my house so I jammed here to grab stuf and water it down but it turned again. Few, I hope all the other San Diegans on the list are doing alright as well. Don't worry at all about any NSO Rovertrax type bad anything at all. I dig both of the options and it took a lot of time to make my decision to go where I did and I still hope I made the right choice. A whole lot of wheeling is the only way to tell for sure. I even got the Salsbury option all dialed in with GBR before heading in a different direction. A lot of the motivation for my decision was that at the time, KC had the only good option that I knew of for the front end. I was even seconds away from buying the elusive coiler front Salsbury. Plus, KC was real good to me on the phone. It came down to clearance and weight. If I ever go bigger on the tires I will will probably end up with the 35 splines then anyway! Thanks again!

[revor]

This is going to turn into the Pirate Thread real soon:)
Hee Hee

Hows the Fire Dave? Still Safe I presume? Hope so...

It's gonna be fun to get all this junk together and find that no one breaks.. What a nice trip that will be...
Really we should all find a common location (middle of some desert, for the safety of others) Order pizza and beer eat like mad drink beer enjoy a fire and realize we're all just doing the same thing only different... :) After loss of much breath.

Oh yeah... Last guy standing has the strongest axle...

Hee Hee..

I hope it all works as portals and Rockwells are to heavy for me to F--k with!

Later
Gotta go watch our fire now ... (only 6000 acres as of yet)

Keith

[Buckon37s]

Oh come on Kieth,

I think a pair of 2.5 tonners would look pretty good under there!:grin

[rover4x4]

are the pinion brakes on those RW's an aftermarket thing or come on em when you get em. and dont they come with the detroit?? some guy told me the pinion brake was aftermarket add on i called bullshit is this correct???

[TwisteD90]

Wow, that’s some threat on Pirate.

Anyway, allow me to add this. I honestly have no doubt that the Sals/D60 is stronger then the 9”, however there are two advantage of the 9” which are weight (which I prefer heavier for better center of gravity) and clearance (which is 1”). The first one is I could care less about weight, it’s not like my D90 can get any slower on street plus it get trailer to trailered and I don’t think weight could play a major factor in this maybe a little yes but not something to worry about. Regarding clearance, I rarely got hung with my stock diff running 5 psi of air so if that’s a problem then I would go with 38’s for now and run 10 psi in the tires which I should be close to stock if not better. Dave, I know you posted so good info but how I see it is those are two major problems. Now I trust keith with his stuff same as I trust Matt (RockWare) and those are the only two people that I would trust with my D90. I’m positive that Keith and Troy now how strong there stuff are other wise they won’t add the 5 years warrantee. I’m not sure if I want to say this but remember the 9” failed once right? Regardless of what it was or why. I know this is a trail and error but it failed. You told me they found the weak link but you never know there could be another one.

Trust me when I get my truck back I will ABUSE the sals and will not give it a break. I promised Keith that I will break his axle in two years or less, now is this going to happen, I doubt it, but only time will tell. Ok I’m not running TDI, or Crawler box, but I’m known with dropping my clutch form 4-5 K rpm and let the truck bounce till I make it and I do have a very heavy foot when it comes to climbing obstacles. I will also make things fair and run 38” TSL SX on 15X10 as soon as I get my truck back.

P.S. Dave I hope you are safe and everything is alright.

P.S.2. Please ignore any spelling or grammar mistakes :)

[Mike Hippert]

but I’m known with dropping my clutch form 4-5 K rpm and let the truck bounce till I make it and I do have a very heavy foot when it comes to climbing obstacles

Is there any other way to Wheel!:thumbs

[Buckon37s]

Well,

That was written very well. I have to disagree with some of it. The 9in R+P is arguably stronger than a d-60. Most people actually feel that it is stronger. Take a look at the pinion size. You seem to be the bigger is better type, take a look. The design is also more efficient and increases the contact patch to distribute stress more efectively. You should have a doubt that the Sals is stronger because science just does not show that it is. Now, lets be careful here with predictions. I have torn a D60 axle in half in my pre land rover life, nothing is undestructible. You will have a stronger housing than a 9 if it is not trussed. The 9in will have a stronger ring and pinion. I have seen more break on a d-60's than I have on a nine. You will have stronger axles than I will as I elected to stay at 31 spline 1.37in axle shafts. More than overkill for my tires.

Now, careful on that break. That was with a 31 spline axle that was flawed from the factory and it still ripped the steel of the drive flange practically off before it let go. That says a lot of the R+P in that axle. Don't you think? That had more torque on it than most engines can even generate. Now Bill has 35 splines in there that are larger than the sals. His is stronger. Once again, my axles will not be.

Two things that need to be thought about. You bring up a break like it is damning evidence. It would take 2 weeks for me to recall all the breaks on Dana 60's that I have seen that are stronger on the ends than the sals. My experience alone yields two shafts, broken housing and 1 R+P. That was during a lot of wheeling but stuff breaks and to think the Sals is somehow unbreakable is not wise. The second thing is I chose to go the way I did. KC's option is not any less expensive and I had priced the Sals with GBR before I was aware that anyone was offering it.

Now, ground clearance seems not to matter that much to you but it does to me and most. You have to run 38's to have the same ground clearance as a guy running 35's. So the question is, why not just stay with Rover stuff and 35's? You will have the same ground clearance as you did with the Sals. I guess for space under the frame? I care about weight. Most do. I have heard the COG arguement before but it really doesn't hold any weight, sorry for the pun. Who is more likely to roll, you with 6in of lift and 38s with d-60s or someone with 35in tires, same ground clearance. 400LB will not keep you paint up, it will just slow you down and put more stress on your engine.

People are not going to agree and the Sals is a good option. A great option in a matter of fact. Is it stronger than Bills 9in, no. Is it as strong, the r+p maybe, the axles no. It will serve you well but it is not better in any other way than the housing is stronger. That might be a stretch also because KC is using custom housings. All new. This is in no way a reg old ford 9in. I am happy that you are happy, but you should have a doubt.:roses

[Buckon37s]

FYI: the one on the right is the 9in

[rover4x4]

how bout them apples


<-----stock:evilfinge

[tbmcneill]

for the most part, i'm going to defer to the pirate thread for now. i think we're getting some good info going on there & no need to do this twice.

that said, here are a couple of bullets:

*we're not talking about a stock 60/sals either. if we were talking stock 9s vs stock 60s, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. what we're discussing are hybrid axles available in the market .... rover9s, currie's 9", sals, pro rock 60s, teraflex's 60R, etc.

*FWIW, the axles bill is running are NOT larger than what comes in the sals that yousef has.

*also, the ring gear on a 9" is thicker, but how does that add strength? there's 2 ways to increase r&p strength. 1. make the r&p bigger (ie bigger diameter ring gear, etc) and/or 2. make the pinion come in lower on the ring gear to increase the contact patch.

*looks like we need a 3rd parties ruling on this one. a 9" ring gear is not stronger than a 60. the 9s does have better contact area which boosts its strength considerably. the pinion is a different story ... the 9s is bigger, has a shorter shaft, and has the support bearing.

*even there you pay a penalty, though. a 9s pinion hangs extremely low. not the 60s or sals. i'd rather hit diff than pinion if i had to pick (mute point with a pro rock or 60R).

*as for ground clearance, you're talking 1" at the diff ... hardly enough to make a difference. unless you're running the hammers or similiar, 1" is nothing considering the strength gains & price (& warranty if you start talking specifically about RT sals).

*again, great discussion ... see you at the other thread...
T

[Buckon37s]

I will see you over there. This is good for this board to actually get some good tech talk. Anyway, we are going to have to defer to a ref. Especially since I have now waisted the good part of a work day! I gotta put the ball back in your court. The ground clearance is 1.5in not 1in. Yes, mine is shaved. "Gains in strenth and price" - My option is not more expensive at all, and strenth is obviously an argueing matter. I know it is not a stock Sals. If it was it would be 24 spline. Thicker ring gears allows the teeth to be deeper, allowing more contact surface. As to the pinion location. It is only about 1/2 in lower than a standard rover set up. Not 2 inches. Bottom line, what breaks a 9 will probably break a 60 and what breaks a 60 will probably break a 9 all things being equal otherwise. I will have a hard time breaking this setup with tiny 37's. Then again, I can break anything!

[tbmcneill]

some of this we starting to beat to death, but, FWIW ground clearance is exactly 1" between sals and stock rover ... yousef's truck had 11" under the diff, now its 10".

& i agree, whoever said the 9" pinion hangs 2" lower is wrong ...
T

[rover4x4]

where is some tech info on the Sals?

[Buckon37s]

Yeah, lets put it to bed, they are both good with different stong points and weak ones. BTW: I was comparing a shaved 9in to a d-60 1.5in. It was fun. I was always a 60's guy, had them under my old truck. Just moved on is all. Still feel they are a great choice.

[tbmcneill]

philip-
i posted some comparative specs earlier in the thread. sals and d60 are the same with regards to what's available. (stock sals does only have 24 spline axles.... same as stock rover housing).
T

[revor]

Now wait a minute!!!!!!
The 9" Pinion does hang a couple inches lower than a 60... The 60 is nearly centered (about 1.5" above true hypoid) The 9" is a "nearly" full hypoid meaning that the pinion centerline is equal to the centerline of the ring gear teeth at their lowest point tangent to the pinion gear... I'd do the math but it's Halloween and we just got back from a giant party with about about 15 kid amped up on sugar... Why is it that while the kids wind themselves up the adults try to wind themselves down?????
Okay... Okay... I just drew up the dimensions on AutoCAD, the 9" is only 1.785" lower than the 60...
My mistake!!!
I still think we're ALL doing what we should be doing!!!
That said!!!
I'm goin' to bed!

Later
KAK

[mikeslandrover]

Going way back on this thread to the top speed issue have you thought about a GKN overdrive, ups the final drive by 28%, fits in the P.T.O. hole at the back of the transfer box. Or is that space already taken by an underdrive?
Hope the fires keep away, it's on the news every day overhere in G.B.

[TDI Guy]

As for the overdrive, Wise Owl is now making one for the LT 230 t-case also.. I just got the news letter. No price though..

Randy

[mikeslandrover]

Does that overdrive auto shift?
The GKN one does, I just love changing gear at the flick of a switch.:grin

[TDI Guy]

That I'm npot sure of..... THats right, the GKN uses an electic solenoid..

Randy

[Buckon37s]

I have been thinking about an overdrive and will probably get one some day but right now I need to save a little money for christmas. When/if I get it I will drop in some real low gears.

[Buckon37s]

Just for posterity:

Here is a couple pictures of the axle roughly in. Looks needs new links, driveshafts and shocks but gives a good idea.

[Buckon37s]

one more: Pretty good clearance for 35.8in tires!

[lobster]

You might want to think about changing your bumpstops. I had those same ones on my truck and have changed them out 3 times! Everytime I went down a trail I looked back and saw chunks of Red bumpstop littered all over the place.
FYI

[TDI Guy]

David, looks great. Do you hve the side fuel tank like me? Did you make a skid for it yet?

Rob, what bump stops do you recommend?

RAndy

[lobster]

Safari Gard's new solid bumpstops seem to work better for me. I have only had them on since MAR. I did rip both of the old front bumpstops off at MAR.

[Buckon37s]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the advise. Those are the only thing I ever ordered from $afari Gard and when I got them I made a blood oath to never get anything from them as long as I live. They are not even the right size. I plan on replaceing them for sure but I thought I would give them a try and see how it works. They are way too large in the front. As to the skid plate, I am actually selling the side tank and replacing it with a custom made rear tank. Very high ground clearance and will open up a ton of storage room under the side seat. Maybe a good place for a propane tank!

[lobster]

I agree with your blood oath, I also made the same mistake(s)
If you are very nice to Mary Chadd she might replace the crap ones you have with the new ones. I about to change out my fronts and will email you a picture of the new ones.

[Buckon37s]

Thanks,
I would like to see them. The way I see it if I only waisted 140 bucks at SG I am way ahead of most rover owners so I should just count my blessings.

[lobster]

Here are the rears

[mikeslandrover]

I see nothing???????????

[lobster]

The board won't let me post my pictures. They are too big 2mb. It won't recognize the smaller JPE's for some reason. If you want to see the pictures and have a fast connection email me and I will send them to you.
rgoodall@comcast.net

[Mike Hippert]

Rename the JPE to JPG and it should work. Thats what I have to do.

[TwisteD90]

Looks sweet dave :) How far is it now?

[Buckon37s]

Hey Yousef,

The front 9 is being dropped in as we speak. I have not gotten any pictures and being as the shop is 900 miles away I have yet to drop by. I wish I could real bad. I will post up as many pictures as I can, especially when the funky lift gets a good start. Hey I noticed your caption:

"I see sunray engineering axles in my future!"

Have you by any chance seen this:

http://performanceunlimited.com/cus...lefeatures.html

40 Spline HUGE shafts for under 3g's delivered. The Camo 40 runs 10 grand. I thought you might like that!:cool:

[TwisteD90]

The link is not working!

If you don't mind, can you tell me how much you paid for your both axles. I just want to compare it to sunray's axles.

You can email me the #'s if you want.

Thanks,

[Buckon37s]

Hey,

Sorry about that, try this:

http://performanceunlimited.com/customproducts/9inchaxles.html

Look at the 40 spline stuff. Holy crap!

As to the price, I am not sure if I have the authority to tell people, I will ask and then let you know. To give you a clue, it is WAYY less than the sunray axles.

I should add again that I have the 1.37in 31 spline axles. The 35 spline is a little more but not much. I am going to have a almost impossible time breaking those without a krawler box and/or bigger tires. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

[TwisteD90]

That's alright.


I like the missile proof on that 40 :)