Stainless Steel Hardware Kit

[boshea]

Has anyone installed the stainless steel hardware kit from Atlantic Britich or MotoSource? If so, how time consuming/difficult is the install?

Thanks,
Brian

[dmarchand]

Don't bother. Swap some bolts and go back and forth to a Marine store. The big bolts and most of the cost in the kit is for stainless bolts that replace your roll cage bolts, and door hinges. This is a mistake. Your replacing grade 8 hardware with stainless stuff that might be Grade 5 or less. You'll find it cheaper to source what you need locally as well.

[chrisvonc]

You should be able to get a list of what you need from the Part Sub. table (http://www.d-90.com/tech/part_sub.html). Look towards the bottom for the bolt replacement list.

[artm]

I've always thought it better to take your hardware and galv-electroplate them.

[JimC]

The AB (motosource) kit doesnt specify whether it includes high-strength bolts for the rollcage, and such bolts are available. The Totally Stainless catalog has a whole line of high strength (grade 8+) stainless bolts.
Regardless of what the kit includes, you can buy stainless fasteners much cheaper even as open stock. All of motosources prices seem to be aimed towards the people that were willing to pay 45k for a d90.

[OCD90]

I contacted totally stainless a few weeks back based upon the link/list we have here on the site. Some of the bolts indicated didn't make sense to him, and he was sort of confused--not having time to discuss with him...my order's gone un-filled. My fault, not his.

He is interested in creating a series of "packages" for say the doors, hood, etc. And possibly one master package...and yes, he was MUCH cheaper than the stainless packages offered on the Rover sites.

If anyone's interested, I'm sure we could have a D-90 Source only package that he'd be ahppy to do...I just didn't have the time/initiative to be the one to advise him.

[Eric Siepmann]

I'd be interested as long as the Grade of the bolts was the same!

EwS

[Eric_S]

Count me in too!
Does anyone have access to a "totaled" Defender? Remove one of each size bolt and ship it to Total Stainless. Just an idea...... :idea

Eric-S.

[JimC]

Oddly enough, I've been compiling a list. In fact, I even wrote TS a few weeks back and asked if they wanted the list so that they could put something together, and I havent heard back from them.

I'm in the middle of a Rover rebuild and am trying to use stainless where ever it is possible because I so hate corrosion.

I've been working my way through the chassis and suspension components, and have a lot compiled. The only thing I'm unsure of is whether or not it will be OK to use SAE equivalents for all the metric sized bolts in the suspension.

Determining sizes is easy, all it takes is a cheap caliper and thread pitch guage from Sears. Well, that and some time...

I propose a project where we divide up the defender and create a master fastner list. It will be a great resource in and of itself - If we can get TS to do us a kit price, so much the better.

[Eric Siepmann]

Does TS do Tork fastners like on the rollcage? I think hex heads or anything else would look stupid.

EwS

[JimC]

The dont have TORX in the high-stregnth line, but they offer custom stuff (incl blackened stainless), so maybe where there is demand, there would be a willingness to produce. There is a 12-point socket head bolt though, which could look fine.

That being said, I do not actually know the grades of the OEM fasteners on the roll-cage. Also, i think the motosource kit doesnt have torx bolts, just hex ones. Hex probably would look fine painted black.

[Mike Hippert]

Oddly enough, I've been compiling a list. In fact, I even wrote TS a few weeks back and asked if they wanted the list so that they could put something together, and I havent heard back from them.

I'm in the middle of a Rover rebuild and am trying to use stainless where ever it is possible because I so hate corrosion.

I've been working my way through the chassis and suspension components, and have a lot compiled. The only thing I'm unsure of is whether or not it will be OK to use SAE equivalents for all the metric sized bolts in the suspension.

Determining sizes is easy, all it takes is a cheap caliper and thread pitch guage from Sears. Well, that and some time...

I propose a project where we divide up the defender and create a master fastner list. It will be a great resource in and of itself - If we can get TS to do us a kit price, so much the better.


Most Bolts have a rating on the head of the bolt. Standard bolts have either 2, 3, 5, or 8 lines going outward on the top of the bolt head, and Metric bolts have a # like 8 or 10.

Here check it out

http://euler9.tripod.com/bolt-database/22.html

http://www.sizes.com/tools/bolts_SAEtork.htm

[newfD90]

What a timely thread. I need to replace a bunch of rusty bolts, but I'm balking at paying $300 for a bunch of bolts! The TS package sounds great. Sign me up!

[JimC]

Most Bolts have a rating on the head of the bolt.

Yeah, I'm tracking on that Mike, but the roll cage bolts only say "T-O-R-X" very faintly across four of the little star points. If there is some other convention for Torx bolt grading, I'm not familiar with it.

I'll copy my list so far into XL and email it to you Mike. I dont think users can post files other than pix right?

[Mike Hippert]

Yeah, I'm tracking on that Mike, but the roll cage bolts only say "T-O-R-X" very faintly across four of the little star points. If there is some other convention for Torx bolt grading, I'm not familiar with it.

I'll copy my list so far into XL and email it to you Mike. I dont think users can post files other than pix right?


HMMM not sure of the grade myself but, as I always do, If you don't know put a grade 8 in. Not sure if you can upload an XL file, it's not in the list. You can post a zip though.

[JimC]

Looks like I can attach PDF's, so I've done so.

This takes awhile, so I've attached my work on just the rear suspension, but you can see how I'm trying to organize this effort.

It would be great if someone could verify my size assessments, and it would be truly excellent if I could include the OEM sizes in my document, so if someone has a list, I'll do the data entry.

I'm guessing there would be pretty decent demand for appropriately priced stainless fasteners in the correct grades all packaged up according to major assembly.

[artm]

I don't know...all this aggravation. I mean, why stainless? You still have to be careful to isolate it from the other metals.

I'm tempted to try and electroplate the stock hardware and then even coat it that black plating. Certainly a bit of zinc and a battery are much cheaper than going all stainless. And you keep the grades correct.

[Mike Hippert]

WOW Jim! You realy are measureing everything! I would compare it to mine but allot of the bolts have been replaced, and may not be the normal size. Well I guess it doesn't hurt to check, I'll have a look over that stuff this weekend.

[gearco]

It might be easier to remove the rusty bolts, clean them with a sand blaster or other similar method and put a coating of POR-15 on them. After POR-15ing them, you can shoot them with the original color paint, reinstall and forget about them. I've used the stuff on Land Cruiser restoration projects and have been amazed at how it works. I put some on a front bumper I intended to use later on but didn't, left it outside on the ground for a year or two, and no rust anywhere the POR-15 was.

[artm]

Look, remove them, dip them in a rust stopper and then dip them in a zinc solution and plate them. that's it! Painting the threads with POR or anything else as thick would remove the paint. The plating adds nothing to the thickness of the threads - heck, they're already galvanized.

You can then paint the heads before fitting or just plate everything with black phosphate.

This costs next to nothing compared to the absurd stainless kits.

[Mike Hippert]

Hey, I think it would be cool at least to have a list of bolts, sizes, and bolt head sizes, so when you need to replace something you can just pull up the master list and go to the store. As far as galv vs stainless, well I have had bad luck with both after a winter or two of salt bashing up here in NH, my best luck so far has been to cover the bolt in some good anti seize.

[artm]

Yes, a list of sizes is always good.

As far as corrosion, spray on some Corrosion-X. It sticks like crazy and prevents galvanic reactions. One or two applications a year in all seams and hardware and it lasts.

[boshea]

If someone is willing to put together the group order...please count me in. I just purchased another Defender from the East Coast that's been attacked by rust in these areas.

Thanks guys!

[JimC]

Coating your current stuff is great if you dont mind pulling your truck apart piece by piece, but I need new hardware anyway since I'm assembling a second chassis from scratch. I love the POR15, and I'm painting almost everything with it, including the already gavanized chassis.

I'm going to keep working on the fastener sizes, and anyone who wants to help is more than welcome to.

Any opionions on using the fractional sizes as opposed to the OEM metrics? The only place I can see it mattering at all are places where fasteners go through bushings, like on the rear radius arm to axle bushing.

[Campbell]

Count me in too. I need to replace my hood & door bolts.

[artm]

JinC,

Since you're starting from scratch then all the more reason - IN MY OPINION - to coat new hardware.

I see lots of folks enamored with stainless stuff, even replacing with lower grade. How smart is that?! It's looks over function as far as I'm concerned.

I say black phosphate coated new hardware is best, and you don't get that shiny, "pretty" look from stainless. For me, black looks best with all D90 colors.

[Mike Hippert]

JinC,

Since you're starting from scratch then all the more reason - IN MY OPINION - to coat new hardware.

I see lots of folks enamored with stainless stuff, even replacing with lower grade. How smart is that?! It's looks over function as far as I'm concerned.

I say black phosphate coated new hardware is best, and you don't get that shiny, "pretty" look from stainless. For me, black looks best with all D90 colors.
black phosphate Is that like anodizing or something? How do you do it to bolts you have?

[Campbell]

Jim
I agree I would perfer black. Where is a good place to get such bolts? HomeDepot?

[artm]

I did aluminum anodizing way back in the 70's. All I needed was: battery charger, sulfuric acid, water, black dye and some aluminum foil. Mix dye and water, pour in acid , put in bucket, negative lead of charger attached to aluminum, positive to part. Turn on charger. When bubbling (hydrogen) stops remove and put in cold water. Took about 30 minutes, if I recall.

Don't recall all the details but that was pretty much it. I did it to brackets so it was easy to hold the part. It may be tricky to do it to small items like hardware but it's worth a shot.

I'll look into doing non-aluminum stuff.

[JimC]

Not to be gratuitously contrary, but I'm sticking with the stainless bit because I do not want to get into the unscietific process of home-electroplating. High strength bolts especially are susceptible to Hydrogen Embrittlement (just do a web search) from electroplating and I'm not going to take (however small) the risk by modifying certified, graded fasteners.

I really dont care one way or another about the color of the finish - silver, black, gold etc, I just hate rusted fasteners. On the roll-cage, I may just paint the head of the bolt black so that it doesnt appear out of place. For low-strength applications, TS has a line of blackened stainless.

And I most certainly would not replace any graded fastener with one of a lesser grade simply for aesthetics sake, thats just plain dumb.

I'll keep making my list, and when I'm done, whoever wants to can jump in on an order.

[boshea]

Keep me posted Jim.

Thanks in advance :-)

[BarryO]

Jim
I agree I would perfer black. Where is a good place to get such bolts? HomeDepot?

I like Home Depot for some things, and certainly spent enough time there over the past year with a house remodel and the aftermath, but they have a lousy nuts and bolts section.

OTOH, there are a couple of Ace Hardware's in the area that have remarkably good selections of hard-to-find nuts and bolts.

However, for specialty stuff like this (high-strength stainless, 12-point heads, etc.), it's going to be mail-order; or maybe industrial supply houses like Grainger.

[boshea]

I spoke with George at RoversDownSouth this morning and he carries all of the stock replacement hardware for about $1-2 a piece.

[rover4x4]

I have gotten many obscure screws and bolts for my 90 from ACE hardware

[JimC]

Yeah, George is the man. If I get discouraged I'll just get all my bolts from him. I'll let them rust before I electroplate them though.

[artm]

There must be a process where you can dip them in a solution and deposit a thin oxide on them, perhaps through two chemicals. Anodizing aluminum is easy but I don't know of a similar process for steel. I once heard of black steel which sounded good - a black "oxide" on steel.

I wouldn't wait for rust to develop first though as you face a cleaning problem then.

[javelinadave]

Eastwood Auto
Black Metal Oxide Finish (http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=251&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=400&iSubCat=407&iProductID=251)
Works pretty good. I am not sure how long it will last.

[JimC]

I get the feeling that the eastwood product is largely cosmetic. They state also:

"This system is appropriate for applying a non-dimensional black oxide finish to steel and iron. This system is NOT for use on aluminum, brass, copper, or stainless steel. Steel and iron parts to be blackened need to be thoroughly cleaned by removing all grease and other coatings down to bare metal. "

The info goes on to say that "properly sealed" parts have passed an 80-hour salt spray test, but i'm guessing the sealer is doing most of the protecting.

I'm usually not terribly happy with the durability of any eastwood products.

[RyanS]

If you're really concerned about corrosion, I wouldn't recommend Black Oxide (even professsionally applied). I've used a variety of finishes in the work I do, and black oxide is really just an aesthetic coating. Here's a description of Black Oxide from a plating vendor: "A uniform black coating for ferrous materials. Mostly a decorative coating. Only very limited corrosion protection under mild conditions".

[norros]

I found it very hard to find that thread in Tallahassee, Florida..., went to the marine store, home depot, loew's, ace hardware, stainless steel bolt companies, and they were no where to be found. The people I spoke with at the stainless steel bolt companies told me i'd have to order 100 or more.

I ended up only needing the door bolts for now, all of the others seemed fine, so I called the guy who owns MOTORSOURCE.com (who is the manufacturer who supplies the other companies listed with the 'stainless steel bolt kit' $299.00) and asked him if he could JUST send me the 16 stainless door screws & associated hardware & snaps for the door. I got them shipped for $50, a little high, but it was almost impossible for me to get. And if I did by chance buy some off the internet from some 'unknown' vendor I might have been disappointed and would have had to return them anyway. With motosource's, they were perfect quality.

So, it was easy. Couple of extra bucks, if that.

Coincidentally, in this months issue of Land Rover Enthusiast in Dave Barker's 'tried, tested & recommended' section he lists a company who sells a door bolt kit for under 15 pounds. There is no web-link but however a phone #: 01924 430006 in Dewsbury, UK called LANRO 4x4.

Could be worth a look.

Hope this helps.

Nicholas
Nicholas

[Mike Hippert]

Kinda off topic but I saw this today and thought hmmm may have to give it a try, depnding on how much it costs.

http://www.4wdworld.com.au/newproducts/couplertec.htm

Any input?

[dmarchand]

You can buy that on as an option on pickups for their beds and stuff.

I happened to be in West Marine yesterday and noticed they had a similar unit for galvanized parts. To cut down on the galvanic reaction... I MIGHT have to give that a try...

[xcxre9]

Hi all;

I've been enjoying JimC's pdf on the rear bolts, but saw that thread (from late 2003) go dead... did anyone add to that list with more bolts on the car? I've seen the one that lists all the bolts in the motosource kit, which doesn't even cover 20% of the damn truck.

Just curious.

Chris

[chrisvonc]

Threads merged

[boshea]

Has anyone installed the bolts from MOTOSOURCE yet?

[xcxre9]

I installed all but the rollcage... Everything went pretty well, but all the bolts that aren't included (little odds and ends like the interior windshield backets, rear seat brackets, the countless little screws all over the car) kind of bugged me, and I'll order them from TS.

All in all, if you're going to spend the time measuring and ordering from TS, there's no reason to go Motosource. However, if you're not doing every single nut and bolt on the car, it's definately easier to order one complete kit...obviously.

Chris

[JimC]

My project has been stalled for awhile, but I intend to continue compiling my list.

Has anyone bought fasteners based on my list? I trust everything worked out OK?

[paulb]

Chris,
Thanks for that tech link within the site. Excellent.
My door hinges need the help

[jchan88]

did they do a package?

[Hollywood]

does anyone know the description and size of the rollbar bolts. also need a place to get them, and an aproximate price. i ve been replacing all my hardware, but being a novice, i cant locate that item.

[Shake]

Hi folks...New 94 D-90 owner...LOTs of rusty bolts and screws. Any word from totally stainless on the D-90 kit? September 2006. Also, anyone know where to get the tool to fit the TORX bolts on the roll cage? HELP!! I just spent 3 hours in Checker, Lowes and HOME DEPOT! No joy.

[rover4x4]

call your local snap-on person ill bet they have em. The local person here always has what I need and if i am really down she'll stop by the house. Short little lady that smoke Marlboro reds. anyways good luck

[Davis]

Sears should have that Torx bit. They will be with the sockets.

[JimC]

If there is a another bunch of pent-up demand, I'm willing to get another stainless group-buy together. I've done it before and can do it again. Also, plenty of opportunities to improve this time.