Replacement Motor and Trans for 110

[gearco]

Would like to get the group's feedback about an idea I have for putting a different motor and trans in a mid 80s 110 with the factory 3.5 litre dual carb setup and a 5 speed manual transmission. I have 3 other Land Rovers, 2 Defenders and a Discovery. With the 3.9 and 4.0, none of them have enough power IMHO. I don't like the idea of the 4.6 litre Land Rover motor as it is 2 valve, gets lousy mileage and while an impovement in power (222HP and 300 fp torque) has its own installation issues. I like the ZF automatic transmission-it is really smooth and versatile. For the 110 I want a motor with more horsepower and torque, and is more fuel efficient. My idea is to install a BMW 4.0 litre motor out of a 740 or 540 sedan, or the 4.4 litre BMW found in the 2003 Range Rover and BMW X5. I have a source for this motor out of a BMW wrecking yard at a reasonable price. The output specs for these motors are the same: Both BMW motors have 282 horsepower, 324 ft/lbs of torque and are fairly fuel efficient, getting 15-20 mpg. The BMW motor will bolt up to the Land Rover ZF automatic trans using the BMW bell housing. You'd get the motor to run by taking the factory BMW computer and engine harness and connect only those functions to the computer required for engine managment. The ZF transmission would be the non-computer type so you could retain the original cable driven speedo. You'd use both upper and lower BMW motor mounts for the engine and use the Land Rover automatic trans. mounts. The transfer case would be in the same position so the drive shafts would not need to be refitted. OK, please be devil's advocate. Tell me what I have missed or miscalculated.

[Mike Hippert]

Will the BMW ECM be OK without being able to talking to the trans? It would be cool if you can get it to work. And if you can put in a 4.4 then why not the BMW 4.6, even more power!

[artm]

I say the best route is a Chevy 350, 700R4 and an LT230 adaptor. This is the best of most worlds: power, availability, up front cost, repair cost, fuel economy with an efi setup.

I have an extra adaptor for $650, had two done in S. Africa.

[gearco]

Mike: The ZF trans will be the non-computer type, pre 96 I think, so there isn't any need for the engine computer to talk to the trans. the engine computer will handle only motor functions. You would connect a 12volt input to the BMW computer and then connect the engine harness wires to the correct pins on the computer. As for the BMW 4.6 motor, I'm not familiar with it. I've been told by a BMW guru that the new 745i motor will not bolt up the the Land Rover ZF trans. Thanks for the feedback. Jim

Follow-up Post:

Arthur: is the Chevy 350 Vortec a 4 valve motor now? i understand it is a good motor and will go 100,000 miles before you do anything to it. the Chevy motor setup could be a cheaper route, but is the Chevy motor much heavier than the BMW? i think it is because it has a cast iron block and you'd have to change the front springs. i'm looking for something about equal in weight to the aluminum block GM motor that Land Rover installed. the truck is heavy enough as it is. also, i'm not sure the shift lever and center console would look factory like the ZF trans does. since LR used the ZF trans, it made a nice console with provision for a transfer case shift lever. thanks.

[artm]

James,

1. I wouldn't use a Vortec. For me an older 350 is just fine, simpler electronics - or even a carb version.

2. Yes, it is heavier than any aluminum motor but you can easily compenste with the right OME springs.

3. As far as matching the center console, sure that is a nice looking setup but in all honesty a custom one may have to be fabricated. No big deal. Heck, if you have a pro do it they can match up one to the factory look.

I had plans to fit this setup in a 110 but will first see how a 300Tdi/R380 works.

[dmarchand]

Get a used 300tdi setup with the ZF from the UK. Then mod out the 300 with a larger turbo unit from the 2.8, fat intercooler, etc.

Define what kind of "power" your looking for. Strictly horses, or torque, off the line, cruising, highway top end, etc.

[artm]

I don't know, Dave. ECR told me fitting a 300Tdi/auto in a 110 isn't worth it. To max out a Tdi's tune just to run an auto may not be good for it. If you must have a diesel in this setup then the 2.8 is the only option for me. But then you will NEVER recover the cost of the conversion through fuel savings. NEVER! So, you may as well go with a V8.

[dmarchand]

Hey now, nobody said anything about recovering costs... :crazy

That's just plain crazy.

[gearco]

I thought about doing the diesel too, but the power/weight ratio wasn't there. Talked to ECR and they said forget about using an automatic, even with their "hotrod" 2.8 litre powerstroke. Said it sapped too much power. There doesn't seem to be any suitable turbo diesels between the 2.8 powerstroke and the 6 litre Ford or Chevy. I agree that you have to assess what your power requirements are. I use my trucks for relatively fast city and over the road traffic, and on the weekends over farm roads and mountain terrain; not rock crawling. I need something that will get me there at highway speeds and will double as a tractor on the weekends. Tired of hitting the throttle at 50 on the highway on a hill and nothing happening. As for a 350 Chevy with a carb, not interested for a number of reasons. Weight is one, fuel inefficiency is another, and with a carb there seems always to be a problem-choke, overflowing, vapor lock. Tilting the truck high in the front or to the side affects fuel flow, flooding is an issue. I did a Chevy 350 motor in an FJ55 Land Cruiser a few years ago. First did an Edelbrock 4 barrel; hated it, then did a Holley 650CFM. It was better but not perfect and I would rather have had fuel injection where you set it and forget it. Thanks for your comments.

[artm]

Well...

1. weight: a SBC is no heavier than a Tdi, and there are plenty of these in 90/110's. With an aluminum block weight becomes a definite non-issue.

2. fuel economy: with a simple TBI setup you can surely get 15mpg, better than a Rover V8.

3. carb problems: RPI swears by the Weber 500, eliminating fuel starvation and flooding problems.

At any rate, I've been in a 350 RR auto and the power was PLENTY good! That was a ZF. Switch to the 700R4 and you get a better first gear to boot, a better tranny in all respects.

[dmarchand]

What's the gross weight of the 110? Just curious.

[artm]

Well, it depends on which manual you reference as they all seem to be different. The one I have for the says 3050kg - for all versions 2.25/2.5D/V8/ST/SW/HiCap. Now that seems wrong as my manual for the D90 says its GVW is 6001 lbs.

[Mike Hippert]

So then how I think the real question is, how much more does a NAS 93 110 weigh then a NAS 97 SW?

[artm]

No, the real issue is a TDi weighs more than a SBC. The axles can handle the weight of a TDi so a SBC simply offers more power.

[Mike Hippert]

Well Art, I was going with Dave M's question as he might know what it is like to drive a 2.8 with a auto in a 90 SW, so depending on how much more a 110 weighs then a 90 he could provide some good feed back.

I on the other hand kinda like the idea of a SBC, but I also like driving in deep water, so that is my only drawback on the hole SBC thing. I personaly think a diesel in the 4 liter range would be great for power on and off road.

[artm]

Mike,

Well, I don't know what/whom to believe any more. ECR first says the 2.8/auto in a 110 will be SWEEEET. Now it appears they've done a 180.

As for me, the 110 is a people hauler so it won't see water crossings. I prefer the ease of an auto over the fuel savings - except for range.. If I can fit custom tanks under each side and have the whole system plumbed for no user control then I am there.

[evilfij]

Well the easy way is a built 4.6, blown if necessary for the power and screw the gas mileage.

The auto is sucking a lot of your power as well.

I don't think a BMW V8 will fit happily due to the location of the oil pan, however, a BMW six was a factory fit in South Africa.

My dream is a built M3 motor and an R380 in my D90 but I am not sure you can make the zf fit.

Bottom line is that a well running 4.6 is good for 225hp and 300ft/lbs, stick a blower on it and you will be more than the 4.4 BMW, with the best part that, aside from the blower, it would be all factory fit and parts.

Ron

[artm]

Ahhh, dreams...

Mine was a 2.8/auto but not at $10K, unless I can sell of the TDi/R380 for $5K - ha, ha, ha!

Now it very well may be a SBC/700R4.

How things change...

[dmarchand]

You could buy the 2.8 motor for $5K outright. A diesel ZF would be around 1200-1800 depending on availability and mileage.

The problem as you know is all of the diesel "bits". Those are what cost you. Mounts, intercoolers, radiator, fuel pumps and lines, other various brackets, AC compressor and bracket, starter, etc.

Comparison info for those who want to know:
PERFORMANCE COMPARISONS

LR ‘200’ & ‘300’ Tdi International HS2.8 TGV

Displacement :- 2,495 cc 2,785 cc
Maximum power :- 111 bhp @ 4,000 rpm 135 bhp @ 3,800 rpm
Maximum governed rpm 4,000 4,000
Maximum torque :- 195 lbf ft @ 1,800 rpm 277 lbf ft @ 1,400 rpm

LR TD5 Mazda SL35Ti

Displacement :- 2,495 cc 3,455 cc
Maximum power :- 136 bhp @ 4,200 rpm 135 bhp @ 3,450 rpm
Max governed rpm :- 4,200 3,650
Maximum torque :- 221 lbf ft @ 1,950 rpm (manual) 260 lbf ft @ 2,000 rpm
232 lbf ft @ 1,950 rpm (auto)

[Ragland]

You may want to be careful installing a "car" engine in the Defender. These engines may not be designed to operate properly at the driving angles a Defender is capable of reaching. Typically engines for 4x4's receive modifications ensuring that functions such as engine lubrication still perform as needed.

[artm]

First, the SBC is also in truck trim - or "4x4" as you call it. Second, that's nothing a homemade windage tray can't solve. Easy job.

[gearco]

OK, guys, let's refocus. I'm not really sure the SBC would be cheaper in the long run than the BMW motor. For about $2,500 you can buy a 4.0 litre BMW motor with 75,000 miles, with harness, ancillaries and a computer and motor mounts. If you buy a late model SBC in reasonable shape you won't do much better, and if you do the carb deal you need to buy the right intake and install the right carb to the tune of $400-$500. If I were going to do a SBC it wouldl probably go the Vortec route. See http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~jrice/cruiser/FJ40.html for some details on how to do an install of a Vortec. It isn't simple, but it looks like a much better setup than the carburetor approach.

Here's why I thought the BMW motor would be the best choice: a. weight is about the same as the stock 3.5 motor; b. increased horsepower (282); c. increased torque (334); d. it bolts right up to the Land Rover ZF transmission without an adapter-you use the bellhouseing off the BMW motor; e. you keep the factory speedo and odo; and lastly... If you ever sell the truck I think you have something worth a lot more than if you have a SBC-just my personal opinion. As someone said the six cylinder BMW motor was put in the LR in South Africa; and we all know BMW put a lot of their own stuff on the Rovers while they owned them, including the 4.4 motor in the new Range Rover.

One thing somebody said that is a concern. That's that the BMW V8 oil pan might not work. Does anybody know for sure this is a problem? I had anticipated having to modify the pan to work; it will be tricky because it is made of aluminum.

Many thanks for the comments. Jim

[artm]

OK...

1. You can buy used, running SBC's for VERY little money - much less than $2500. Even a new one in truck trim can be had for less than $1500. Ancillaries are also dirt cheap. No way a BMW setup is cheaper. And what about repairs? No contest.

2. Why go Vortec with all that computer crap? If you want EFI a simple TBI setup is good enough for me. Easy startups and instant response, that's all I want from EFI and TBI is easy to work on.

3. Are the BMW motors truck motors? Which 6-cyl is used in SA? With an auto? These numbers are impressive.

[gearco]

Arthur: the TBI systems I'm familiar with cost a minimum of $1,000. That puts you at $2,500 up front. but I agree that parts for the SBC are cheaper that the BMW stuff. I don't know anything about the 6 cylinder BMW motor used in SA. I like these motors, they are smooth and produce good power. My only initial thought about them is that they are a little longer than the V8 and don't know if it would require moving the trans and transfer case back as little. changing the driveshafts is something i'd like to avoid.

in terms of marketablility if you wanted to sell, do you think the truck is worth more to most folks with the BMW or Chevy motor? or does it matter?

[artm]

1. Funny how you compare used BMW with new SBC pricing. I can get a complete TBI motor used for $1500.

2. If you can readily fit that BMW V8 to the ZF then that looks good. I don't mind the 6 if it's got good numbers; resizing driveshafts is no big deal.

3. marketability: to me not an issue as I plan to keep it. To any Rover fan it's the complete setup that's the issue - not just the motor. If it's not a hack job you're OK. Honestly, if that BMW V8 fits easily then, of course, it will be worth more as it would be a less custom (drastic) conversion.

[Ragland]

Art,

My comments about the "car" engine were more directed toward the BMW engines out of a 5 or 7 series. I know they typically modify these for use in SUV's.

[Doug]

Value of vehicle? As far as Defenders go, we all know that closest to stock, closest to concourse, fetches the most $$. Selling one for high value with a non-rover engine isn't going to be easy.

[Eric Siepmann]

I would agree with Doug. I would pass on a D with a non LR motor. A nicely done 4.6 or 300tdi would be worth more if were done nicely in my eyes.

EwS

[artm]

Well, if you've ever seen Timm Cooper's work with non-LR motors you would change your mind.

In my opinion a stock SBC/700R4 beats any stock LR setup - IF DONE RIGHT. A mildly tuned SBC beats any moderately tuned LR V8.

I haven't looked into non-LR diesel setups enough to have a strong opinion but I would bet the best setup is NOT LR's. This coming from a future 300Tdi owner who hopes it will be all it's supposed to be!

While a non-enthusiast will want that concours, stock setup an enthusiast will want the better performing conversion - IF DONE RIGHT.

And, as far as doing it right, others have already done it so it's simply a matter of talking to them and copying.

[Eric Siepmann]

But that's just it. Not that many people do it right. Sure a 350 beats a mildly tuned LR but your talking about more displacement right of the bat. The LR is still a 215 derivative. I just don't like the franken-rover look nor ever will. I mean whats next, we follow the series guys and start putting mercruiser engines in our 90's as well. I've heard Timm does great work.

Just a traditionalist. As far as an enthusiast, I will always try to keep a LR motor in the truck. I am saving for a deisel swap in the future if I can figure out how to get it through IL emmissions. I do mostly trail riding and the 4.0 is more than adequate in the time being. Keeping my rover 100% rover if at all possible.

EwS

[dmarchand]

Emissions should not be a problem. First, you need your title changed to read that you have a 4 cylinder diesel. Easy to do, usually means resubmitting your title with a form and $25.

Then check to see what emissions checks they do on diesels. Most states do not, especially on a repower of a vehicle. And if they do, they usually don't have 4 wheel dynos.

Don't get hung up on the details. Just do it.

[artm]

Of course, I meant displacement for displacementa SBC beats a LR, in stats and costs.

Now, as far as the Mercruiser bastards, there is a valid reason for it: people want to use their Series trucks in today's world. Come on, I have a S3 88 and doing any highway driving is a trip! Sure, to do it right involves much more work but that's what do if you want to use it nicely.

As far as your diesel conversion, I don;t know if it's as easy as Dave says. I mean, if the Mass inspection system had any meat it would look up a 97 D90 and see that is should only have a gasoline motor. Your registration says diesel? Well, you can't get it inspected. Perhaps folks are getting away with it now but you need something more secure than that.

If your state allows assembled vehicle registrations I feel that's the way to go. You show receipts for all the parts, put it together and call it whatever you wish. Get it appraised and insured for what it really is and you're all set. Heck, tell them the motor is from 1970 and yo don't even have to deal with emissions in most states.

You're right about the 4.0. I find it totally satisfying in my D90 but the 110 will be manual and I will eventually need an auto, hence the need for a conversion. Who knows, in the end I may just fit a 4.6/ZF. But I sure would like to stay diesel!

[Eric Siepmann]

Still checking on the repower. Il has some strange laws. They test all passenger vehicles from electric to deisel. Mandatory or your lisence and registration get suspended. Don't ask how I know this :) we're a very socialist state.

Love to get it now but still about 3,800 away for the engine/ancilliaries and would still need the R380, T-case, and new galv. frame.

EwS

[gearco]

So you'll know what ECR is quoting for their 2.8 litre powerstroke motor installation, they told me about a month ago they'd do one for around $20,000. This is for a motor they claim won't do well with an automatic because the auto sapps too much power. Something's got to be wrong with this picture. Why would anyone spend this kind of money on a motor install that is a step down?

[Eric Siepmann]

Damn! $8,500 from RDS complete turn key 300 tdi with all the ancil's as well. New R380 and perhaps fuel system and frame and you're good to go. And still have money in the bank!

[flippedrover]

Funny back in december I asked ECR about the 300 and the powerstroke and was quoted more than I payed for the truck for the 300 and that the powerstroke wasn't legal yet. They were in the process of getting it certified with the EPA.

[artm]

Since when is the 300 legal???

[flippedrover]

I guess the EPA has no issue with it. it sounded like the EPA was/is the stumbling block with getting the engines certified for the US. Really don't know as a desiel is a dream for me.

[RyanS]

Technically the 300 TDI is not an EPA-approved engine. And it may never be as no manufacturer uses it in a US vehicle so the only drive for it would be an aftermarket conversion. And there's probably not enough demand to fund the cost of getting it approved. Does that mean you can't do the conversion? Well, it depends. Every local DMV office is different so you might breeze through the process or get shut down. When I did my diesel conversion, I was prepared with everything I would need to justify the conversion. I was actually somewhat disappointed to find out that the person working that particular day in that particular office didn't really care which engine I had in my truck so it was signed off almost sight unseen (but in my case I had everything to prove it was a legal conversion so I should have passed even if they did scrutinize it). I would recommend that you get a good understanding of what's required to register an engine re-power before you do it.

Did a little digging, and here's some info I received when I inquired with the California Air Resources Board about doing an engine change. This was CARB so your local agencies may vary somewhat from this but I think it mostly applies:

"Thank you for your message to the Air Resources Board (ARB) regarding motor vehicle engine changes. The following information is valid for any engine change done since March of 1984.

In order to be legal in California, you must follow the following three requirements when selecting an engine for your vehicle:

1. The engine must be of the same model year or newer than the vehicle.

2. The engine must be from the same certification (weight) category as the vehicle. For example truck and
motorcycle engines cannot be placed in cars, heavy duty truck engines cannot go into light duty trucks, etc.

3. Only California Certified engines may be used in California vehicles. US EPA (49 state), Direct Import
(greymarket), Used Japanese (non-USA) , marine, industrial, or competition only engines may not be used.

Since your vehicle is not California certified, but federally certified instead, you need to use a federally certified engine. All emissions control equipment must remain on that new engine, meaning that the vehicle will now need to have all the original emissions control equipment that came on an GM federal model vehicle for the 2000 model year.

IMPORTANT NOTE
Once the engine change is completed it must be inspected at a State of California Referee facility. The Referee will Smog Check the vehicle to the emissions requirements of the year of the installed engine. All equipment required for the installed engine must remain in place. This includes any transmission controls or electronics required for emissions. In cases where the model year of the installed engine cannot be determined, the vehicle will be checked to the newest year it was produced.

If you chose not to use original equipment, you may use any legal replacement parts or Executive Order (EO) modifications allowed for the newly installed engine."

[evilfij]

As far as the oil pan I would ahve to stick my head under a 540 or 740 (not easy I have a big head and they are low to the ground :) ) but the way the O3 RR pan works to me it looks like it would foul on the diff/driveshaft for sure.

FWIW this is an eyeball judgment nothing else.

Ron

Follow-up Post:

BTW as far as EPA etc. Series TITLE!!!!

pre 64 there was basically no laws, emmissions, seat belts, etc.