300 tdi problems

[discotdi]

Just looking for some ideas from the experts. Here is what's going on. fuel consumption has increased. seems to be a bit more smoke, but not constant. smokes more sometimes than other times. on start up runs a bit rough for a couple of seconds, then settles down and seems to be "normal".


I have changed the air filter and will change the fuel filter tomorrow. filling up with new diesel today and will add some injector cleaner. Any other ideas I should check into? Current fuel filter only has about 10k miles of usage.

Thx.

[exmod110]

Color of smoke? Fuel filters are cheap, and will not hurt.

[discotdi]

need to check the smoke color. hard to see from drivers seat. I am going to get my wife to drive and I will follow her to check color and when it smokes.

[JFD]

Do you have a pre-filter or "decanter" ? do you drain it to take water out of the system ?
That should be the first thing on the list, then fuel filter, then injector cleaner.

[discotdi]

smoke color is greyish/bluesish not black. idles fine and starts ok. changed the fuel filter, made no difference. smokes a lot on acceleration under load or if in neutral and just revving the engine. when in neutral and revving the engine it seems like there is a slight hesitation and a bit of pop pop pop it is not smooth. this is not noticeable when driving.
It is similar to when the timing was off after replacing the T-belt. Do these engines just get out of time on there own? I have not done any engine work etc. I did change to synthetic oil, but that was 4k to 5k miles ago.
???:(

[exmod110]

They should not go out of time under normal circumstances. Did you have a lot of trouble with it a while back after changing the timing belt or was that some one else?
Even thoe it smokes, how's the power?
With all the problems with the timing that would be step 1 double check it and make sure ALL the fasteners are torqued to spec, esp the crank bolt. There was one a while back that the crank damper bolt came loose and moved on the key way causing sim problems.
when was the last valve adj made?
other then that I would crack each injector line one at a time while it is smoking and see if one makes any difference to the smoke or the "pop pop pop" could be a faulty injector. with each inj line cracked it should run worse. If one makes little or no diff, concetrate on that inj or cyl.
Keep clear of the fuel spray while cracking the inj lines... diesel fuel under pressure is dangerous and potentially deadly if it gets under the skin.
If you are not confident on what you are doing, take it to some one who is!

[D90user]

I really don't have much to add to this but I'm interested in the result.

I would look closely at the timing before you run it too much. It is easy to check using the injector pump hole and the flywheel slot. If you have any doubt though pull the cover. The belt maybe self destructing.

If it is not timing it is either air or fuel.

[discotdi]

It was me that had issues after timing belt replacement. got those sorted and it has run well for a year and about 17k miles.
This morning it was hard to start. It cranked over but stumbled and would not start. On the second attempt it started but again ran rough for a few seconds and then settled down.
I took it to an import shop yesterday and the diesel guy drove it. He thought the turbo was not kicking in. So I checked that the blades still rotate etc. and they do. No oil residue in the turbo and all of the hoses to the turbo seem fine. Is it possible that the turbo is not working? If so, it must have not been working for the last couple of years. I don't hear a turbo whine on acceleration as I did in my 200tdi 110 many years ago.
I am going to adjust the valves and will crack the fuel ines and see what happens. Probably will take it to a shop for that, I am not really much of a mechanic.
thanks for the advice.

[exmod110]

it is poss that the turbo is not spooling up... the way the system works is the inj pump needs to see boost to ramp up the fuel... no boost no additional fuel. a turbo concern would not cause a rough run or hard start unless it was plugged. it would really lack power too!
Timing, valve adj and injectors can cause both concerns.

[discotdi]

dropped it off at the shop today. fingers crossed they know what they are doing. thx to all for the advice. I am having them adjust the valves since it has been 25k miles! will post up results

[discotdi]

got an update, the shop says my wastegate is stuck closed. Turbo rebuild? or can it be fixed otherwise? who is the best rebuild source?

[exmod110]

Stuck closed???? Do you have a boost gauge in your truck?
with a stuck closed waste gate will result in higher then normal boost under load and again should not cause smoke.
A stuck open waste gate would result in little no boost resulting in less power. and neither should result in a rough idle or bluish white smoke.
When u say it is a rough idle at start is this on all start up's warm or cold? same question for the smoke... warm or cold?

[discotdi]

well I was told the opposite, stuck closed equals no boost ergo unburnt fuel causing smoke. the rough idle is at initial cold start, smokes anytime the engine is under load or in neutral if the engine is revved.
the shop doing the work told me the waste gate was stuck closed, did not say it was necessarily the cause of the smoke just that my turbo was not working properly and needed to be sorted. another person told me closed WG = no boost. and smoke.

[exmod110]

you may want to think about taking it to another mechanic...
A closed wastegate is allowing boost to increase to a predetermined pressure an open wastegate allows gasses to bypass the turbine housing regulating the max boost, if it is stuck open it will not have much boost and will be a dog and not perform well at all, because the exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine wheel not spinning it up as it should.

even with out boost it should not smoke the colors you are getting. the rough run at cold start up... check glow plugs if you use them... and check the compression... a slight rough run at cold start up is the same as I have when I do not use the glow plugs on a cold start, yes it starts with out them.. but a diesel needs heat to ignite and burn properly plus the fuel needs to be correctly atomized. a poor spray pattern could cause a rough run cold and not really affect it warm..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5T5PnWE-k

------ Follow up post added May 25th, 2010 11:15 PM ------

another good vid

http://www.tuneyfish.com/blog/how-to-wastegate-operation/

------ Follow up post added May 25th, 2010 11:24 PM ------

and the best one showing the operation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp1nxki-M2c

[diesel_jim]

On the wastegate actuator on the turbo, get a pair of pliers and pull the small rod, check it moves. that way you can see if your actuator is stuck.

They are easy to remove... two 10mm nuts and a spring clip (although it's probably easier, on a 300, to remove the whole manifold as the actuator is hidden at the back of it and a real PITA to get to)

once the spring clip and arm is removed (careful, it'll spring back as it's under tension, when you pull the arm off of the little lever that actually goes into the turbo housing), you can easily move the "gate" itself, the lever should flop about.

As said above, if the wastegate is stuck shut, then you'll have no limit to turbo pressure. if it's stuck open, then you'll have no turbo boost at all, as it'll all be going out the gate.

[Gren_T]

Hi Todd, I've just been through this with my own 300, it was giving blue smoke when idling or being reved up, i was unable to drive it due to not being road legal yet.

I checked the turbo and found it was leaking oil due to shaft wear. I ended up changing the piston rings and big end bearings while i was at it.

turbo issue aside, blue smoke is normally burning oil, check the valve stem seals are not loose/hard or damaged they can be changed with the head on the car, a good tell tale is the car does not smoke under sustained load but smokes on start from cold or when pulling away from idle.

pull the heater plugs and check the tips, they should be covered with a black soot that feels smooth if rubbed between your fingers, if the tips are crusty or the soot feels like there is grit in it you are burning oil which will give blue smoke.

any oil running down the valve shaft can burn on the valve seal and eventully prevent a good seal causing poor running.

I have attached a couple of pics of my head showing the effect of burning oil, only cylinder 1 looks normal
this head was fitted clean in 2008 and only run for 50 hours max.

have fun

Gren

[D90user]

Great info here.
How easy is it to change the valve stem seals with the the head in place? I though it would be difficult to get the cap, collet and spring out without skewing it up.

I have been putting this off because I assumed I should take the head off, but I would love to take care of this.
cheers

[exmod110]

Any updates?

[discotdi]

not yet, I dropped the turbo off at a rebuild shop and they have not gotten back to me yet. hopefully will hear today. handling that issue first and will see how it affects the smoke etc. Also, going to adjust the valves.

[exmod110]

I am interested in the outcome.... more knowledge is always a good thing!!!

[discotdi]

I will post up when finished

[discotdi]

picking up a new turbo tomorrow. Found a good source for the Garrett turbo. Paying $750. He said could rebuild for less but the parts were out of stock for 6-8 weeks, so went with the new. will post up with the results.

[discotdi]

new turbo is installed, LOOKS GREAT, but still smokes. However I do now have much better power when the turbo kicks in at about 2000 rpms. sounds good too. adjusting valves tomorrow, although I think this is mostly a maintenance issue and is unlikely to resolve the smoke . After that will think about injectors etc. My wallet will need to recover first though!!

[discotdi]

valves done. no change in smoke issue. the smoke is a greyish color and has a distinct aroma of diesel exhaust. more noxious than a normal exhaust smell. it can even be smelled in the car while driving. Also at idle there is a constant puff, puff ,puff of smoke as it idles. When I rev the engine especially around 2000 rpms the smoke gets really heavy and the car runs a bit rough as well.

any other suggestions? thinking about changing injectors if anyone knows a good source.

[nathanwind]

I've had this page bookmarked from a prior D90 thread as soon as I get a little more liquid:
http://www.paddockspares.com/pp/DEFENDER/Engine_Parts/Fuel_injector_-_new_-_manufactured_by_Bosch_-_300TDI.html

Seems to be the best deal out there. However, as Eric (brn24whl) pointed out - don't forget to also change out the change the copper rings at the bottom of the injectors (should be available on Paddock website as well).

Keep me posted, I get a little more exhaust than I like under load so if it clears up your smoke issue I may just bite the bullet and order new injectors. I've got 76K on my 300tdi and doubt they've been done previously...

------ Follow up post added June 9th, 2010 12:12 AM ------

PS - would be curious, make sure you report if all of this improves you mpg (I'm currently getting 20-24 city/hwy on mine).

[exmod110]

Did you ever crack the injector lines to see if you can get it to go away? It will run worse when you crack each like, but the smoke might change more with one then another.. that would be the inj to pull out first.

[discotdi]

when you say "crack the injector line" do you mean just loosen it a little where it connects to the injector or take it off the injector? I assume diesel will spill out? how much?is it under great pressure or will it just sort of weep out?

[exmod110]

Yes loosen the nut on the line at the injector, do not remove it, usually 1/2-1 full turn is enough. you can make sure they will all move easy b4 you do it running... saves a bit of hassle. you will get some fuel spray, the pressure will depend on how tight or loose you get the nut. DO NOT GET YOUR HAND OR ANY PART OF YOUR BODY CLOSE as a precaution... nitrile or chem gloves are a must for safety. wrap a closth wrap around the line and loosen the nut, it will run poorly each time you crack a line... If you want I will get my vid cam and go through the process and stick it on youtube.

[discotdi]

I appreciate the info and video offer, but I think I will take it back to the shop that replaced the turbo. I will mention the injector deal to them. I am beginning to think that it has gotten out of time somehow. It is acting the same as it did when the timing was off due to the improper cam belt replacement. I posted about that and finally got it fixed and it has run great until now.
This morning it was difficult to start and when it did it ran very rough and smoked heavily. The power is also lacking except when the new turbo kicks in. but it is losing power going up even small inclines. Whatever the problem is it seems to be getting worse.

I suppose to check the timing I will just have to take off the front cover and have a look?

[revor]

You have to take the front cover off to look. You'll need a 10MM pin to put in the fuel pump pulley to check its position.

[D90user]

It sounds more like timing to me, also considering you had issues before it is getting more likely.
When my injectors became clogged I had more random puffs of black smoke (along with more smoke).

To check the timing you can just pull the inspection plate (triangle- 3 bolts) on the front cover. then remove the bellhousing drain plug (if it is in ) and rotate the engine until you see the notch on the flywheel. you can then take a 10 mm drill bit (or is that 8mm?) and slide it in to lock the injection pump. If it does not slide in with some wiggling of the engine... your timing is off.

If that is not it you may also be worth changing the lift pump if it is of unknown age...

One other thing to consider is bad fuel. you can always get new diesel and draw from a jerry can to check that out.

good luck

------ Follow up post added June 9th, 2010 11:09 AM ------

ahh and expert beat me to it!

[revor]

While I agree with Steve on his method of checking the timing, you can't check the cam timing that way and there are loads of notch's and holes on the 300 flywheel, don't let them fool you.

I would be concerned about the plastic covered tensioner if it still hase one (hope not). Mine disintegrated and caused similar power and timing issues befre it completly failed.

Another thing that warrants a look is the damper/crank pulley. If it is slightly loose it can allow the timing belt pulley to "hammer" on the keyway in the crank, this will lead to timing changes and eventually destroy the pulley and potentially the crank. I have seen this too, it also causes wierd timing and power issues.

[exmod110]

All the suggestions were mads early in this thread.....

They should not go out of time under normal circumstances. Did you have a lot of trouble with it a while back after changing the timing belt or was that some one else?
Even thoe it smokes, how's the power?
With all the problems with the timing that would be step 1 double check it and make sure ALL the fasteners are torqued to spec, esp the crank bolt. There was one a while back that the crank damper bolt came loose and moved on the key way causing sim problems.
when was the last valve adj made?
other then that I would crack each injector line one at a time while it is smoking and see if one makes any difference to the smoke or the "pop pop pop" could be a faulty injector. with each inj line cracked it should run worse. If one makes little or no diff, concetrate on that inj or cyl.
Keep clear of the fuel spray while cracking the inj lines... diesel fuel under pressure is dangerous and potentially deadly if it gets under the skin.
If you are not confident on what you are doing, take it to some one who is!

[discotdi]

yes indeed, so back to the beginning.

[discotdi]

ok, replaced the injectors and the smoke is gone:). however, now it is idling at 1500-1600 RPM's! How does one adjust the idle? Or how did changing the injectors effect the idle speed?

[discotdi]

final result. injectors did not solve the problem so I went back to what I should have done first, the timing.
turns out as correctly surmised by Keith
"Another thing that warrants a look is the damper/crank pulley. If it is slightly loose it can allow the timing belt pulley to "hammer" on the keyway in the crank, this will lead to timing changes and eventually destroy the pulley and potentially the crank. I have seen this too, it also causes wierd timing and power issue".

This was indeed the problem. replaced the damper, crankshaft gear, and seals. I also had a new timing belt installed as well as new drive belts. The truck runs well with no smoke. It is still a bit down on power when ascending inclines but I will work on that later.

Now it is also leaking diesel fuel. I think it is either one or two of the new injectors or the fuel return line. will check that tomorrow. Engine was way to hot when I got home from work today.

Thanks for all of the tips

[D90user]

So was the crank pulley obviously loose?

Glad you got it sorted.