Mar 2011

[dchapman]

According to the ROAV website, MAR will be held September 29th through October 2nd at the same location as last year, Willow Hill Farm in Buckingham County, VA.

I heard this location sucked. Can anyone comment on that?

Who is going?

[tjfslaughter]

I read a couple weeks ago that they plan on expanding the trails there. I have an un-modified rover and found that there was little for me to do last year and the heavily modified guys where disapointed as well. I have talked to some friends up here in NY and NJ and they are hesitant to go.

Most likely I will attend because I have a business trip in Quantico the few days prior...

[Hammertime]

We go for the comeradery and the camping with people of like interests. But it would be nice if there was better wheeling. Wish they could get a band that you didn't need to be in the next county so it didn't hurt your ears. Can't even talk to the person rightnext to you. There were only two places with any pucker factor.

[dchapman]

Wish they could get a band that you didn't need to be in the next county so it didn't hurt your ears. Can't even talk to the person rightnext to you.

Well, Scottsville is known Worldwide for their rock-n-roll music. So.......

[Wolf Fabrication]

Crap, I know I am out for MAR already. :(

------ Follow up post added July 5th, 2011 01:52 PM ------

And to be clear, I don't care where it's at, I'd still go. I go to MAR more for the camping and Rover people versus wheeling.

[draaronr]

Not going for the first time in 9 years. Its a great place to hang out with friends and drink beer, but lacking for the family. No trails primitive camping long drive. Hope the weather is great.

[rijosho]

Going for the first time in 3 years. Took Thurs and Fri off months ago.

[pushngo]

I,m going and agree the trails were weak but never thought of MAR as a wheeling event anyway. As long as they get a couple of hundred trucks it doesn't matter where it is I can wheel anytime.

[quick128]

I was very disappointed with the trail options last year and I will only go back if there is no good alternative. I really enjoy being able to hangout with people and look at all the different trucks, but you don't take your lifted locked trail truck to park it in a field. Does anyone know if ROAV got access to anymore property? What was there on the farm isn't really suited to making anymore trails.

[disco dog]

Dan, Yes the trails sucked, but Mar's are still fun for other reasons. I,m holding out to see where you will be forming an event the same weekend.

[dchapman]

Dan, Yes the trails sucked, but Mar's are still fun for other reasons. I,m holding out to see where you will be forming an event the same weekend.

I had every intention to go to MAR this year. But no one I know, besides Randy W, is going. Everyone else has made other plans due to the lack of trails. Dr. Aaron's group from the South is out; and a chunk of the Philly group from the North is out. Even a few locals claim they're not going.

Not sure what I'm doing, yet. I have the week off so I'm going some place, just not sure where. As of now it looks like I may be meeting a group in central PA. But I'm not planning on making the Cove happen since John Tackley is no longer in ROAV. If someone else wants to head it up, I'll go to the Cove over anything else.

[quick128]

I had every intention to go to MAR this year. But no one I know, besides Randy W, is going. Everyone else has made other plans due to the lack of trails. Dr. Aaron's group from the South is out; and a chunk of the Philly group from the North is out. Even a few locals claim they're not going.

Not sure what I'm doing, yet. I have the week off so I'm going some place, just not sure where. As of now it looks like I may be meeting a group in central PA. But I'm not planning on making the Cove happen since John Tackley is no longer in ROAV. If someone else wants to head it up, I'll go to the Cove over anything else.


I'll go if you go. Maybe Sarah would go if Tami was there.

[Hammertime]

I had every intention to go to MAR this year. But no one I know, besides Randy W, is going. Everyone else has made other plans due to the lack of trails. Dr. Aaron's group from the South is out; and a chunk of the Philly group from the North is out. Even a few locals claim they're not going.

Not sure what I'm doing, yet. I have the week off so I'm going some place, just not sure where. As of now it looks like I may be meeting a group in central PA. But I'm not planning on making the Cove happen since John Tackley is no longer in ROAV. If someone else wants to head it up, I'll go to the Cove over anything else.

What am I chopped liver?

[dchapman]

What am I chopped liver?

I don't get it.

[Wolf Fabrication]

What am I chopped liver?

I go to MAR for you Dana.

[Hammertime]

Jonathan are you going ?

[ron]

I will likely go.

Im going down early as I have a line on another property near MAR that me and a small group (4)will be allowed to run.

[crown14]

What is a mar?

[Wolf Fabrication]

Jonathan are you going ?

Can't this year. College fraternity 100 year reunion and homecoming is that same weekend. :( I really wanted to bring down both Rovers and the entire clan this year too. I'll be at Rauch Creek though.

[TDI Guy]

Have went for several years now but last years trails were not worth the long drive from NJ at all... I think the farthest I will ever drive to wheel now is maybe the Cove.. Or Rauch which is not far for us.

[don]

I would love to make MAR one year but every time the event goes off and I hear the feedback on the trails I'm glad I stayed home. I've done the Rovers on the Rocks at RC and had a great time. Plus I can make it over to PA in a couple of hours. If I am going to use a "get out of the house for a weekend" pass and give up time from the kids it's going to have to be an amazing event and for me needs to have good trail and wheeling.

[Hammertime]

I will likely go.

Im going down early as I have a line on another property near MAR that me and a small group (4)will be allowed to run.

You got any parts I might want you to bring?

[rijosho]

Hopefully we can get a little caravan from NY/NJ to head down there as I've been looking forward to this event from even just the shear perspective of wanting to meet a bunch of people from the board I've spoken to but never met in person. Also to see those again I've met before, to have some challenging trails that always seem to bring some of the smaller groups a little closer together by the end of the day, to learn a bit more from the more experienced, and to tell lies around the campfire. It'd be nice to also see some of those again who have had kids this past year, and those with new (to them) trucks.

[cgalpin]

What is a mar?
That place you go every year around october :finger

I don't go because of the wheeling (it's a nice to have) so I'll likely be there as usual.

[Chris Vitale]

Hopefully the Williow Hill Farm will offer significantly more challenging terrane, including intermediate to advanced trails specifically.

While I have truly enjoyed attending MAR since 2004, even though I live in North Jersey, disappointingly this may be the first year I won't be attending.

Call me crazy, but I don't feel the need to "compromise" when it comes to enjoying personal time. I equally enjoy comradery and putting my rig/skills to the test during an event.

It is my hope that ROAV will create a MAR that will appeal to these two non-conflicting interests...it is this that makes for an amazing event and MAR's overwhelming success in years past.

[Ray_G]

Will likely be there having missed out on the past year and some change of wheeling; but going more for the people than anything else. Also gives a great deadline for finishing the new truck that is almost feasible.
r-
Ray

[quick128]

Hopefully the Williow Hill Farm will offer significantly more challenging terrane, including intermediate to advanced trails specifically.


It doesn't. They will need to develop something else nearby for people to be able to wheel.

[dchapman]

Just a little something I've noticed.

Some of the people who claim they go to MAR for the people and not the trails seems to be the same folks who claim a place like the Cove is too "Hardcore" for their ability. If you're not going for the trails anyway, what does it matter if the trails are too hard for you or your truck? So why complain?

It's just an observation and really does not mean anything. But it is strange.

[Rugbier]

The Cove has trails totally stock friendly.

During ROAV Halloween event, I helped guiding the run and no carnage and everyone made it safe to camp.

The real downer for me is travelling so many hours just to hang out ( no wheeling per se ).

Now, it quite bother me that many, many people who complaint about MAR last years are not expressing the frustration,.... I know they've complained to me about driving that long for no trails, like what the hell is ROAV just for the Richmond and south area members , etc ....

I truly believe the BOD of ROAV will listen to said expressions and act upon, but if people keeps quiet, they shouldn't bitch if things do not change.

[ini88]

Last year MAR sucked real bad for trails. I do like seeing all you southern guys, but shit if im driving that far why not have some good wheeling too? I didn't buy a Land Rover to park it at the mall and hang out with the Honda guys. I like sitting around the camp and chatting it up with everyone late at night but I really like it when we get to wheel together... then chat about it around the camp fire.

I see a lot of guys up north at all the events, but only see the other half down at MAR. Seriously it can't be that hard to hold a good event. All we need is a good amount of trails and a place to put a tent up. I felt like last year they gave me a clearing to put my tent up and thats about it.

[pushngo]

Maybe someone can arrange a Sat run to Crozet?

[Rugbier]

Maybe someone can arrange a Sat run to Crozet?

How would that be perceived for highly modified trucks to be on the roads to go wheeling?


IIRC, the 2009 MAR, forced us to take county roads for 2-3miles to get to the trails, I am not an advocate of Drinking and driving, and saw lots of it on public roads, NOW, if some Rover person is drunk and goes on the road and kills themselves ( I don't care ) but what if an innocent life is taken.

Lets all communicate with Doug, Dan Rao, Mike, Keeney, Sparky, Mark G and whomever else is involved and express our desires. If the place is already locked, then it is, if not, maybe a new venue will be chosen.

------ Follow up post added July 12th, 2011 10:56 AM ------

Last year MAR sucked real bad for trails. I do like seeing all you southern guys, but shit if im driving that far why not have some good wheeling too? I didn't buy a Land Rover to park it at the mall and hang out with the Honda guys. I like sitting around the camp and chatting it up with everyone late at night but I really like it when we get to wheel together... then chat about it around the camp fire.

I see a lot of guys up north at all the events, but only see the other half down at MAR. Seriously it can't be that hard to hold a good event. All we need is a good amount of trails and a place to put a tent up. I felt like last year they gave me a clearing to put my tent up and thats about it.

I agree

[quick128]

Maybe someone can arrange a Sat run to Crozet?

Better be running crozet while you have the chance...

[dchapman]

Lets all communicate with Doug, Dan Rao, Mike, Keeney, Sparky, Mark G and whomever else is involved and express our desires. If the place is already locked, then it is, if not, maybe a new venue will be chosen.


They're too big of pussies to make an decisions. They know Willow Hill sucks already.

[quick128]

Other than the cove, is there anywhere in the state that is developed enough to handle a large group of people and has a decent trail system?

[Hammertime]

I know you guys don't want to hear this the trails at Oakridge were nice. I met more people there than any other event. Mostly because you signed up to wheel and other people you never met signed up at that time also. Don't get me wrong I like wheeling with people who I know their strengths and weaknesses are. but it also nice to learn about other people. Ya see if I had just read the fourm postings. I would have said that F***ing Chapman was a total asshole. Now that I met him I know he is. LOL just kiddin from what I seen in person he might be alright.

[MC22958]

The big problem with Oak Ridge is the Cost of the venue. Throw in the cost of the trail guides and it becomes too expensive, not to mention the dislike of having to use trail guides. Don't get me wrong, I run at Oak Ridge when ever I can, but until they change how they run the operation I do not think it is a doable thing for MAR. Yes I agree the trails at Willow Farm are a little lame. I will still be going to see people I haven't seen in a while, but then again it is about an hour from the house. I hope some other trails will become available? One can hope... Yes, Dan I know....

[disco dog]

Oakridge would be an excellent venue for a Mar or any other event. Lots of trails for all levels of Mods. Who gives a Rats ass if the trails were guided, every group has a leed truck anyway, and those guys knew the trails, had the keys , and were very helpful. I would love the chance to get back there again.

[draaronr]

Oakridge would be an excellent venue for a Mar or any other event. Lots of trails for all levels of Mods. Who gives a Rats ass if the trails were guided, every group has a leed truck anyway, and those guys knew the trails, had the keys , and were very helpful. I would love the chance to get back there again.
i agree 100% loved everything except the rover nazis that wouldn't let us keep our tow vehicles in the infield with our camp. that was bs.

[pushngo]

Yea I liked Oakridge, get rid of the flowers and the Grey Poupon

[disco dog]

yea i liked oakridge, get rid of the flowers and the grey poupon
lol!!

[lobster]

We will be at Mar this year. Donnie and I have been working on the menu this summer. This will be my ninth year in a row and wouldn't miss it! Bringing the wives and kids for the day. Trails were weak but you have to be creative, just drive them in reverse gear. Mud bog was tons of fun.

[dchapman]

Oakridge is awesome. Great trails and it's a nice place. I really like what they have going on over there.

Oakridge is a great spot for a Jeep event. Jeep guys are really into guided trail rides. I'm not sure that I've ever been to a Jeep event where they did not have guided trails. It's a Jeep thing.

Oakridge is no good for a MAR-type event. It's already been proven. The cost alone is a deal breaker. In 2008, ROAV paid Oakridge Estates $17,722 just to rent the property. I'm not sure what all that included, but I've heard rumor that it's $15k just to use a field for camping and to have trail access. In addition to the Oakridge fees, you have to pay a group of Jeepers, Trail Experience, a fee to guide the trails for you since there is no open trail riding. In 2008 ROAV paid these guys $8,855, plus I think ROAV fed them the entire weekend.

In 2008, ROAV had 231 registered trucks at Oakridge. If you had to pay Trail Experience their fee, and then give Oakridge Estates another $15k, your bill would be $23,885 before ever seeing a trail. That's no restrooms, no showers, no vendor tents, no food, no drinks, no flowers, no insurance, and no wrist bands.... If MAR would attract 231 trucks again to this venue, you're already looking at $103 per truck to break even.

In 2008 ROAV spent $88,181.36 on MAR. That equates to $381.74 per truck. ROAV charged $100.00 per truck. Now, I'm no corporate business owner and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but something is just not adding up here.

Total revenue collected in 2008 was $65,400.57. This was from MAR, the Summer Rally, the ABM, dues, and all merchandise sales. They spent $88,181.36 on MAR alone. ROAV had to cash in a $30,000 certificate of deposit just to climb out of the red, leaving them with $2,889.13 in the bank going into 2009.

Even if ROAV cut out all of the bullshit like pony rides, wrist bands, flowers, bands, Bill Burke..... they still could not make Oakridge work.

There are several events at Oakridge a year, though. So if you enjoy being on a guided trail ride schedule, there is opportunity to run trails there.

IMO, what made MAR cool is you had the ability to run trails as you wish. This is how Texas Rovers runs their SCARR events, too. When you're ready, you just hit the trails. You can run the trails alone, or you can run them with a group. You can run trails at night. You can run a trail, run back to camp for lunch, and then run another trail if you'd like. You're not tied to some schedule. This is what sets MAR and SCARR apart from the Jeep events.

I don't know what's up with the Willow Hill property and why ROAV wants to go back there again this year for MAR. I have yet to hear one person say the trails were good. No one! No one in this thread, no one on Dweb, and no one on the current ROAV Board of Directors. Doug does not like the trails at Willow Hill. JohnK does not think they're good trails. Gus, when he was on the BOD's for 5-minutes, did not like the property. So I do not understand why ROAV is going back there. There has to be a reason, so what is it?

The funny part of the whole thing is no one at ROAV will tell anyone why Willow Hill was selected again. I've asked and have not gotten an answer. Gus has asked and cannot get an answer. Others have asked and no one can get an answer. I've asked in person, on the phone, and on the ROAV BBS, and no one can tell me why Willow Hill is attractive. So I'll ask again here as I know the ROAV crew is watching this thread because Doug sent out an email to the other BOD's linking them to this thread.

So, Doug Crowther, John Keeney, Mike McCaig, Dan Rao, Sparky Harcourt, Mark Garrenton, and the super secret Gus replacement, Doug's brother, Catlett, what's up? We know you are watching this thread, so why is Willow Hill so special? Many people here who claim they're going to MAR regardless of location say trails are not too important to them. In past years the ROAV BOD's claimed that the Cove was too "hardcore" for a MAR event, yet you guys must feel a little differently about it since ROAV has had two ill planned and executed events at the Cove since that time. You guys know the property now and understand there are trails available for beginner drivers and stock trucks; more so than even the current Willow Hill location. In addition to those beginner trails the Cove offers better camping, 2,500 more acres of trails, better location for people traveling from the North, South and West, and the overhead of the event would be less money. ROAV would not need to pay $7,000 for port-a-potties and port-a-potty cleaning; $8,000 for tents; who knows what for property rental and clean-up.... So why not offer a property that has a lot more diversity to suit a larger number of club members?

Now, I know the answer to this question already. The ROAV BOD's have this mental block in their heads that the Cove is too expensive for MAR. I've heard this before, even before ROAV dropped $88,000 on MAR in 2008. But what the BOD's can't explain is "why". Here is how it breaks down:
-The Cove charges $13.00 a day to camp; next week ROAV is going to Rausch Creek where camping is $25.00 per day. The Cove is cheaper.
-The Cove charges $15.00 per day for wheeling; Rausch Creek charges $35.00 per day for trucks, and $7.00 per day for passengers, PLUS a membership fee. The Cove is cheaper.
-Each year ROAV rents port-a-John's that total over $6,000; the Cove has their own John's spread out over the property, plus an additional 8 flushing toilets. (not to mention hot showers)
-ROAV rents tents for vendors to set up in, some costing as much as $300.00each; the Cove offers large shelters for $10.00 a day, or cabins for $90.00 a day.

So personally, I do not understand what's so costly about the Cove. Willow Hill may not be charging an entrance or camping fee so that makes a difference. However, ROAV makes up for it in tent charges, port-a-potties fees, and clean-up/maintenance.

Some on here have mentioned that Oakridge and Willow Hill are a good place to bring the family. So is the Cove. The cove has a swimming area with a beach, hiking and biking trails, fishing, volley ball courts, and the most interesting thing to kids other than bathrooms, fire pits at each individual camp site.

If ROAV would take the $4,500 sponsorship money that Land Rover Richmond gives them, the cash Will Tillery gives them, plus what ever donations they're auctioning off - plus the savings I've mentioned above about the bathrooms and tents - and use that money to off-set the admission fees the Cove has, the Cove would be a killer event. It offers more in every single aspect from family to trails.

Yes, the Cove would have a year, maybe two, of growing pains. That's ROAV's fought for having shitty events the last few years and flip-flopping venues. But once ROAV gets back into a groove with a good property MAR will come back to what it once was. But there is no sense in spending all this time, and money, improving the Willow Hill property just to get kicked off of it down the road like what's happened two times before.

[lobster]

Dan are you getting smarter with age? The cove is where we should be. It makes total sense for a group of our size. Start the push for 2012 maybe no Obama and MAR at the Cove???

[dchapman]

I can't do it alone, Rob. Been trying for years. People need to speak up.

I've got email messages from ROAV BOD's, current and past, who say one thing and then act out on another. Doug is one of them who likes to talk out of two sides of his mouth. But when it comes down to it, the Old Guard makes all the calls for the "club". There is absolutely no member input considered, despite what the BOD's are telling you.

Just check out the ROAV meeting minutes to see what I mean.

[Rugbier]

Dan,

Are you back on the pain killers? what minutes?

[dchapman]

Dan,

Are you back on the pain killers? what minutes?

Exactly.

[airbornrover]

Dan,

Are you back on the pain killers? what minutes?

Thats what he meant?

[Hammertime]

Hey I'm all for the Cove less than 2 hous from home. Great wheeling, great camping, awesome lake and scenery. You get our votes.

[dchapman]

You get our votes.

Talking to the wrong guy, Homie.

Make a post on the ROAV BBS telling them what you think. It's not that they're going to acknowledge you there, but you can at least say you tried to reach out to them.

Then again, when I post there I'm "attacking" them, lol.

[disco dog]

Glad you got that off your mind Dan! ROAV should change to ROAsouthernV.

[dchapman]

Nothing but crickets.

It's funny, some of the ROAV Directors/Officers voted in the poll, but did not address any of the questions asked, or attempt to clarify what's going on for MAR.

68 days till MAR. No preparations as of yet.

Just for comparison, Solihull Society had registration open and the entire event planned for the National Rally on March 6th of this year.

It's no wonder why MAR has lost over 50% of their attendance since 2005, and why the National Rally now holds the "largest Land Rover rally in North America" title now.

[Hammertime]

Well we just came back from the Cove. We got to talking the the guy in charge and asked him why ROAV does not have MAR here? Here is what he said. Quote ROAV had scheduled a MAR event there 3 years ago. And that he reserved the alotted dates. Those date came and passed, no phone call saying they were canceling the dates no anything. He said it left a bad taste in his mouth. Which who could blame him. Seems the American way anymore no one takes responsiblity anymore. If you can get away withit it's alright. Thats BULLSHIT. At least have the BALLS to call and Cancel. I have my own service business and if a customer bails on me without a call or a good explanation thier going to have a had time getting me to come back. And if I think I am going to be even 5 minute late I am calling to say so. There is not many good wheeling places left so the last thing you want to do is piss them off, What ASSHOLE's. And as far as setting date to wheel the same time as other groups on purpose thats BuLLshit too! Grow up get over it. I know I probably pissed a few people off. But you know everything I said is true. The Offroading crowd is small enough the last thing we need to do is split it up and alienate people.

[pushngo]

Wonder who set that up??

Crickets??

[dchapman]

Well we just came back from the Cove. We got to talking the the guy in charge and asked him why ROAV does not have MAR here? Here is what he said. Quote ROAV had scheduled a MAR event there 3 years ago. And that he reserved the alotted dates. Those date came and passed, no phone call saying they were canceling the dates no anything. He said it left a bad taste in his mouth. Which who could blame him. Seems the American way anymore no one takes responsiblity anymore. If you can get away withit it's alright. Thats BULLSHIT. At least have the BALLS to call and Cancel. I have my own service business and if a customer bails on me without a call or a good explanation thier going to have a had time getting me to come back. And if I think I am going to be even 5 minute late I am calling to say so. There is not many good wheeling places left so the last thing you want to do is piss them off, What ASSHOLE's. And as far as setting date to wheel the same time as other groups on purpose thats BuLLshit too! Grow up get over it. I know I probably pissed a few people off. But you know everything I said is true. The Offroading crowd is small enough the last thing we need to do is split it up and alienate people.

I did that, Dana. Per the request of the 2007 ROAV Board of Directors. I was asked by the Board to reserve the Cove for MAR. They gave me the dates to reserve and asked me to handle it. So I did.

Later on around May of 2008 (don't quote me on an exact date), the 2008 Board of Directors changed things up. I asked MANY MANY times what was going on, but no one would talk to me. If you reference the Dweb thread on MAR 2008, you can see where myself as well as Garrett Porderfield and JB McClure asked repeatedly what was going on for MAR 2008. No one would answer us (this was before the time for the ROAV BBS). I made phone calls, sent e-mails, etc... but I could not get a reply out of anyone. One of the Board members lived right down the street from me at the time and I went to his house to ask questions personally, but still NEVER got a solid answer. Once I made the reservations on behalf of ROAV, I was cut out of the loop.

Once MAR was announced to be held at Oakridge estates in 2008, that's when some of the shit hit the fan. My name was on the promissory letter from the Cove to ROAV. I had brain-raped Daniel and Willis at the Cove for all the information the ROAV Board of Directors asked me to get. This went on for several days. I felt like I owed the Cove some support for their work. In 2008 we did in fact go to the Cove for the first Anti-MAR (Mike McCaig gave it that name). We had about 35-40 trucks present and over 60 people. This was a far cry from what the Cove was expecting, but I did what I could. I did tell Willis that ROAV would not be bringing their MAR event to the Cove as soon as I could, but since ROAV would not volunteer that information until the 11th hour, I was a little late in doing so because I had no idea what the fuck was going on.

We returned to the Cove for 2 more years giving them as much business as possible.

I'm also a little misguided by your tone in your email. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but when you say this:

And as far as setting date to wheel the same time as other groups on purpose thats BuLLshit too! Grow up get over it. I know I probably pissed a few people off. But you know everything I said is true. The Offroading crowd is small enough the last thing we need to do is split it up and alienate people.

...I get the feeling you're talking about me. If you are, just come out and say it. Don't be a pussy.

------ Follow up post added July 25th, 2011 02:21 PM ------

Alex Grice
Dan - That site near Winchester sure looks promising...we've considered
Oak Ridge (my wife graduated high school with the landowner...he's made
a shitload of money in the junk recycling and waste-hauling bidness....)
but they've always wanted too much for a site fee. For the jeepers
crowd with a thousands of vehicles, that's not too bad, but it has been
cost-prohibitive for us. Then again, we've made a bit of money over the
years....

Can you send me any contact info on the place? Like landowner or an
idea of their site fees? Or a location? Mike McCaig and myself - two
of the five remaining founders of ROAV -are heading to the mountains
this weekend for a bit of off-road camping. We could detour a bit to
the north....

As the official "club historian," I'm a permanent member of the board of
directors, so I still have some say in things.... Pearl's Pond is
great, but loosing full use of the island - either through flooding or
re-planting - puts a real crimp on things. There's not a lot of flat
land for camping.

Cheers




Daniel wrote:

>Yeah, you'll quickly learn the land owners are "different". Not too good of
>people to work with, but the guys at Big Dogs Productions seem to have an
>"in" with those guys. Also, in talking with Garrett Porderfield (he does
>off-road training at the Cove monthly) Big Dogs may be able to get ROAV a
>great deal on insurance and may be willing to do a lot of the legg work on
>promoting and planning the event. Might be worth a phone call.


8/14/07

Alex Gracie Thanks for the reply...we never got around to getting up there...but it
sure seems like a good choice for the MAR in '08. Talked with the
McDowell fellow who seemed pretty nice, though. I've organized quite a
few rallies, including the 50th at Greek Peak in NY and many of the MARs
- before I got burnt out by the work. Now I prefer to chill at the
events...I'm gettin' too old for that sort of foolishness....

Camped over the weekend at Davis Run near Sounding Knob in Highland
County. Pretty good weekend with *great* weather - actually cool at night!

Great time - until I developed a death wobble on the way home - most
likely the panhard rod bushings - one of which is nearly new. If'n I
kept it under 45 mph, all was well. It took a loooong time to get home
not driving the super-slab....

Cheers


9/24/07

Jeff
Sending this note again; I dont think it went through the 1st time.


Ok all,
Daniel Chapman is in touch with the Cove and October 2,3,4,5 2008 is ours if we want it.
Daniel will get back with them later to confirm.
They require $37/attendee for camping and 20% of our admission price. This cost does not include the insurance policy.
Daniel will put together a short Microsoft Movie to be aired during this year's MAR highlighting next year's 60th Celebration/MAR at The Cove.
I've put Daniel's email on this em.
---Jeff---



9/24/07
Paul Prosser
Sounds Great.



Paul J. Prosser

Business Manager



9/24/07

John Tackly
Looks Good...



9/24/07

Lance Holvoet
Sounds good to me, who was tasked with getting LRNA aboard if anybody?

FSC Holvoet



9/24/07

John Tackley
East Botha of LRR pledged to contact LRNA thru his LRNA dealer
rep...James was to follow up, collect sponsor check, etc..



9/24/07

James Dearden
OK OK -- I need help on this -- I am in Bristol VA all week on a massive
job -- and just swamped until next weekend.

Volunteer?



9/24/07

LeGault
Sounds good to me. . . if everyone agrees, let's book it and be done!



9/25/07

Eric
Sounds like a plan!

Eric



9/25/07

Mike McCaig
That's great that we can have it on those dates! Let's do it!

A couple of questions: Do they require a deposit? Do they need a signiture on a contract? It would be nice to have something in writing from them. I'm sure you see that the National Rally is already hitting all the boards with their adverts so we should come up with a press release and and a letter to potential sponsors ASAP. If we can get some folks together to go see the site let me know I'd like to go along.

Thanks!
Mike McCaig



9/25/07

Dchapman
To answer a few of Mike's questions.

The Cove does not require any sort of deposit. Actually, things seem
pretty lax as far as The Cove management goes. I've met both Daniel and
Willis before in person. Both seem to be "ok" guys but I think it depends
on what day of the week you catch them on. So, I think something in
writing from The Cove would be beneficial to ROAV.

One thing Willis was not very clear on was the rental of the property. He
said for the 3 nights of camping, we're looking at $37.00 per adult and
$6.00 per child under 12; this includes the "land management fee" for the
trails. In addition, The Cove wants "something like 10% to 20% of what the
organizers charge". 10 to 20% is a big difference, in my opinion. So that
in it's self I think should be in writing.

The only concern I have is the camping/per person fee. $37.00 per person
does not sound so bad. But, times that by 3 or 4 in a family and I can
already see the complaints. A family of 3 would cost $111.00 plus the ROAV
membership of $20.00, the event fee and 3 t-shirts and you're over
$200.00. There was no mention of a fee for off-site lodgers and 3-day
trail passes. Now, taking that into consideration, when I went to the
National Rally, my registration was $40.00 which included a t-shirt, and
then I paid $240.00 for a hotel room making the total event fee $280.00. I
did not hear too many people complaining at the National.

Touching on the National once more. The whole time I was there, besides
breakfast and a sandwich of lunch, I did not buy dinner either of the 4
nights I was there. That means a lot. The sponsorship the National Rally
has was awesome to say the least. No reason MAR cannot have this same
sponsorship. Just as an example this is how their night schedule worked:

Thursday night - Buffet style cocktail party. Rolled cold sandwiches
(tortilla with chicken or roast beef), chips and salsa, warm smoked
salmon, and veggies and dip. They also had a bar set-up, we received 2
free drink tickets and the rest of your drinks were cash. This was a
non-specific vendor sponsored event. I think part of the vendors
registration went toward this special event. I enjoyed this night. This
allowed the attendees to meet and greet not only the vendors but to meet
each other under one roof/tent.

Friday night - Hamburgers and Hot Dogs, chips, potato salad. Beer kegs
were sponsored by Off-Rovering. Food and drinks were again sponsored by
all the various vendors. This was called "Vendors Night". All the vendors
had their tables set up in one area located in a big field. I guess they
had about 15 vendor "booths".

Saturday night - Buffet style again. Roast beef, mac and cheese, green
beans, more hamburger and hot dogs, etc.... This was sponsored by LRNA.
Afterwords they had their raffle which raised ~$4500.00, all of which was
donated to an area non-profit organization. The left over beer from
Off-Rovering was also available.

What I'm getting at is if ROAV can get more sponsorship, I think ROAV
could lower their part of the admission fee and overall have a lot less
expenses. I asked Doug Evilsizor from LRL magazine what he would like to
see at future MAR events, and this is his response:

"i would love to do a LRL Lounge event like we did in montrose. but have
to have a venue that works. the current MAR location (coupled with the
unrelenting rain) isn't very friendly for a good evening.


and i can't really just put up a tent at the venue, the point of the
Lounge is to provide benefit to subscribers & supporters rather than
giving lots of stuff to freeloaders. so it must be a close, accessible,
but a off site location.


but i am willing to do a lot more at MAR by way of support. from
publishing a special MAR edition (or insert) to brining in bands & booze,
to organizing photographers at key points on the trail to provide shots to
attendees, to simple cash. the thing I need is circulation and subscribers
(as well as advertisers). if there is a way to wrap a subscription in with
every MAR attendee or ROAV member, that really helps me."

LRL really stood out at the National Rally. Although I've always felt the
LRL magazine was lame, at best, Doug really is a Rover Head of another
level. At his Lounge Event, Doug rented a Bed and Breakfast to host the
off-site cocktail party. At the party, Doug had Sky Vodka in attendance
giving away free flavored vodka drinks, as well as Mountain Khakis giving
away free pants and cigars. He also had a silent auction which included a
set of tires, Land Rover gears bags, art, cigars, and about a dozen other
things. The profits of the auction went to a charity who was also in
attendance. Side events like this take away from the "rough neck camping
in the woods" most of our wives do not enjoy, and add a sense of class to
the night. If that's not your cup of tea, you don't have to go. But I
think it really does appeal to a lot of Rover owners. Besides that, it
gets the vendor in the door and his donations to ROAV helps to lower
attendance cost.

I would encourage some of the ROAV members to gather at The Cove sometime
soon to have a look at the land. I think you'll be impressed. Not only are
the trails just what an event of this size needs, the lay of the land is
perfect. It also adds some various activities to MAR like fishing, hiking,
paddle boats, swiming, volley ball, horse shoes, open camp fires, stage
for a band, etc.... Oh, and the little store on site sells ice!!!

The only other information I know of is about insurance. The Cove requires
a 1-million dollar, multiple incident policy. I don't know too much about
insurance so I cannot answer any questions about this... If more
information is needed someone who knows what they are talking about needs
to call The Cove.


Daniel Chapman



9/25/07

Mike McCaig
Daniel,

Thanks for the quick reply. Obviously we have a lot of details to work out for the 60th event and sponsorship is of the up most importance. It could quite literally make us or break us. We will need to keep the participant cost close to or below our current fees I would think. Before we move much further on this I suggest we nail down the exact fees that the Cove will be charging with something in writing, identify some of our major expenses to put on the event (insurance, tents, meals?) and rough out a very basic budget and fee schedule to see if it is doable. I guess I'm crazy for talking about this before we even get through this years MAR but if ROAV is committed to putting on a world class event for the 60th then we will be competing with the National Rally and other events for LRNA sponsorship, vendor sponsorship and recognition as THE event to participant in. I think we can do this as we have aready held the largest LR event in North America, we just need to move forward in the planning and with good input and ideas (like yours below) it will be successful.

Thanks,
Mike McCaig




9/27/07

Paul Prosser
Dear Sandy,



Long time no talk to. Is there another place that we should be talking to for comparison purposes? Or should we go back to the Cove and try to negotiate the price back down to $42/person? There has been talk about the cost, and to me it is not outlandish for what we are trying to do, it’s the 60th. It sounds like the Cove fits the need for trails and space; so, it appears to me that we negotiate the price. Daniel Chapman says he is getting some paper work from them let’s look it over change what we don’t like, send it back and go from there.



Are we having fun yet or what?



Thank you,



Paul J. Prosser

Business Manager




9/27/07

James Dearden
Not a lot of time left for this folks. If we are to announce at MAR !!




9/27/07

Dchapman
Just an update on The Cove.

I spoke with them again today just to clarify some of the information. The Cove is also going to send me a promissory letter on pricing for the ROAV event if you choose to hold the event there.

The price breakdown is as follows:
$37.00 per person for three days ($12.00 per day) This includes the camping, swimming, fishing, etc......
$15.00 per person (5.00 per day) for a "Land Use Fee" This is like what Rausch Creek charges or like Paragon charged. This includes the trails portion of The Cove, ATV's, 4x4's, etc....
Children under 12 will have a reduced fee (to be determined after speaking with his brother) and children under 2 are free.
So, The Cove total charges per person would be $52.00. There is NO discount if an attendee wants to lodge off-site. The $52.00 is their basic fee for an event. After the talk of the $15.00 fee, there was no mention of a 10% or 20% additional fee on top of the organizers charge.

Normal charges at The Cove are $32.00 per day for the ATV or 4x4 recreation, so he is working with the group to offer a nice discount.

As soon as I get the letter from The Cove outlining the price charges, I will forward it to all of you.

There are also some nice features available we can use (and will again be outlined in his response)
Shelters $10.00 per day
Stage for a band (pricing not definite, yet, as the stage is not complete. But he mentioned the price being in the neighborhood of $1000.00 per the 3-days)
2-cabins available for 75.00 per night and one for 150.00 per night.
Boat rentals



Daniel Chapman




9/27/07

Mike McCaig
This sounds much more reasonable to me. The greatest expenses we have with MAR are for infrastructure, i.e. tents, porta-potties and land use/reclamation. Our bill for tents alone this year will be over 6k. A lot of the costs will not be incurred or will be reduced by using a site such as the Cove so we should be able to keep our event fee reasonable. Daniel thanks for following up on this.

Mike




9/27/07

Dchapman
I can't remember if I mentioned this or not, but The Cove does have shower
trailers (with hot water) and restroom trailers. These are not Ritz
Charlton facilities at all, but they do serve the purpose. Out of memory,
I cannot remember if they're handicap accessible or not.....

There is one road in and one road out of the property. At the entrence,
there is a General Store that sells basic camping items, ice, etc...
http://bigdogsoffroad.com/albums/cam...0054.sized.jpg I
don't see why ROAV cannot set-up registration there. That would save some
tent cost if nothing else. Then maybe a shelter could be utlized to sell
ROAV t-shirts, etc...

The 37.00 fee also included life-guards for the swimming area.

Anyway, for what it's worth.....


Daniel




10/1/07

Doug with LRL
i would love to do a LRL Lounge event like we did in montrose. but have to
> have a venue that works. the current MAR location (coupled with the
> unrelenting rain) isn't very friendly for a good evening.
>
>
> and i can't really just put up a tent at the venue, the point of the
> Lounge is to provide benefit to subscribers & supporters rather than
> giving lots of stuff to freeloaders. so it must be a close, accessible,
> but a off site location.
>
>
> but i am willing to do a lot more at MAR by way of support. from
> publishing a special MAR edition (or insert) to brining in bands & booze,
> to organizing photographers at key points on the trail to provide shots to
> attendees, to simple cash. the thing I need is circulation and subscribers
> (as well as advertisers). if there is a way to wrap a subscription in with
> every MAR attendee or ROAV member, that really helps me.
>
>
> Doug Evilsizor
> Founder & Publisher
> LRL Magazine
> www.LRLmag.com"




10/1/07

Jeff, can you foward this to all the people on the list?


This letter is to act as a confirmation for you and your club that the
dates of October the 2nd through the 5th of 2008 have been reserved for
your MAR event, no other large event will be scheduled for those dates.
We are also reserving our two cabins for your use for those dates as well,
those cabins being the lakeside cabin and the floating cabin.

Our prices for this event will be our standard event fee of
$37(standard 3 day fee) per person for the event, plus an extra land
use fee of 15 per person.

You will need to secure an insurance policy either by your club or
through another group IE: big dogs, back country driving school...
We need to be added as an additional insured to this policy with the
minimums of one million dollars multiple occurrence on multiple day
clause, holding harmless our staff, our owners. We also have a
standard waiver that we can provide for your participants to fill
out. We look forward to working with you for this event.

I hope this satisfies your needs; if not please call me at 540-858-2882 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 540-858-2882 end_of_the_skype_highlighting or
send email to skicoveguy@yahoo.com

With warmest regards,

Willis McDowell
Manger




2/5/08

John Tackly Dan,

First, let me apologize for the club if you were indeed left out of the loop regarding the issue of the Cove as a MAR venue.* Apparently, the credit for ROAV considering the Cove at all* goes to you and the initial efforts you undertook.* As Mike said, there was a call for volunteers here on this bbs to go and inspect the Cove, which is how I came to know of it...sorry you missed that.* I was one of the travelers that day.* Fortunately, fellow ROAV member Dan Rao also volunteered to go.* He has attended several events there with other clubs (Big Dogs) and was our guide for the day.* After much internal discussion (which was privately done for obvious reasons) over several days following the scouting trip the Cove was eliminated from consideration for MAR.* You should have been included, however only Officers and members of the BOD participated.* At this time even Dan Rao does not know of the final decision.* A final decision will be announced at the ABM and publicised thereafter...stay tuned to this bbs if you can't make the ABM.

Next, I need clarification from you regarding permission to place your name in nomination for a VA Trails committee position or as a Regional Coordinator position (or both).* As only 1 member of the 7 member BOD, I do not have the authority to grant the conditions you have requested.* Mike Mason explained the reasons why in his reply to you on the bbs.* I can only assure you that your ideas and requests for funding that the committee brings before the BOD will be considered and voted on.* If approved by the BOD, you will get the requested funding...that's just how such matters are dealt with within the confines of the current ROAV bylaws.

I want to ask you again privately, may I place your name in nomination, without reservation?

Please advise before the ABM on this Saturday.

Regards,

John Tackley

[Hammertime]

It is not pointed at anyone person. Just tired of all the BS. Just like this coming weekend there are people that are Anti-ROAV and so on. I don't like joining any clubs because of all the BS but sometimes you just have to suck it up an do some things you don't like to do, So you can do the things you do like to do. If we can't figure out a way to get along there will be no strengths in numbers and then the anti-offroaders will stop all of us. And if I had a beef with you you would be the first to know. In person you seem like a really nice guy but online you sure can be a dick. LOL

[rover4x4]

Geez man you need a hobby

[dchapman]

It is not pointed at anyone person. Just tired of all the BS. Just like this coming weekend there are people that are Anti-ROAV and so on. I don't like joining any clubs because of all the BS but sometimes you just have to suck it up an do some things you don't like to do, So you can do the things you do like to do. If we can't figure out a way to get along there will be no strengths in numbers and then the anti-offroaders will stop all of us. And if I had a beef with you you would be the first to know. In person you seem like a really nice guy but online you sure can be a dick. LOL

Here is the thing, Dana. ROAV is not a club. They would like for you think they're a club, but they're not a club. ROAV is a business. It's a Limited Company. If you do not think so just go look on the State Corporation Commission website - it's public record. Here is a list the officers of this business:

http://sv4w.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/roaV.jpg

ROAV is not a non-for-profit like most people think. They're a business. You are not a club member, you're a customer.

Do you feel like you get good service from this business? You said yourself that you're a business man and that you communicate with your clients whenever possible, so why is it okay for ROAV to ignore you? Don't you expect to receive the same service from the businesses you choose to deal with? I don't understand why you feel it's okay to call me a dick or tell the guys planning other of-road events to suck it up, yet it's ROAV who is toying you along like a puppet on a string. But you don't see it that way.

This new group of Directors ROAV has is a joke. I thought things were about to get turned around for ROAV this year when Doug got involved and Dan Rao joined in. Those two guys with Gus and JohnK sounded like a good team. It did not take long for Gus to see the light on what was really going on behind the scenes, but Doug, Dan, and John can't seem to find their balls to get things turned around. Instead of leaving like Gus did, they're playing the game. They're certainly not sticking to their word.

Take a look around here on this BBS, and then go over to the ROAV BBS and read. There are people such as Jonsey and Crandal asking questions but can't get answers. Gus, myself, and Charles have also asked questions, but they just ignore us. Is that what a club does? Does a club ignore their members? Doug checks this site daily, but he's not talking. JohnK checks the ROAV site every few days, but he's not talking. Dan is here; Mike McCaig is here; they've read this thread and the threads on the ROAV site, but they're not replying. If you want to go on some tangent and start calling people assholes, figure out who the asshole is, first.

I have a feeling, Dana, that you have absolutely no clue as to what is going on within ROAV. No idea at all. You're trying to act like you're the bigger man and want everyone to get along, but you have no idea what is happening in your club - the club you're trying to defend. Why don't you go over to the ROAV website or make a few calls and ask a few questions, then report back to the rest of us what the fuck is going on within ROAV. Tell us what to expect for MAR in 9-weeks. Why they can't get a 501(c)(7) title. Why they keep losing money on "club" events. Why they can't get a rally planned in a timely manner. Why they will not release expenditure reports or meeting minutes to their members.

Come on, Dana, if you're going to talk-the-talk, back your shit up. Show us what the fuck the American Way is, or what ever the fuck it was your were talking about a few posts back, when it comes to letting people know what's going on.

[Rugbier]

Dan,

The officers info is incorrect as you know, I have posted on ROAV and called some Board Members to correct it.

I am out of town, if they do not correct it by the time I am back, I will make the change myself.

Hopefully ROAV makes it easier and correct the situation themselves

[o2batsea]

And we need a MAR because....

[dchapman]

Dan,

The officers info is incorrect as you know, I have posted on ROAV and called some Board Members to correct it.

I am out of town, if they do not correct it by the time I am back, I will make the change myself.

Hopefully ROAV makes it easier and correct the situation themselves

I know it is. You know it is. ROAV knows it is. Everyone knows it is.

I posted that just to show the kind of attention to details ROAV displays. It's public record and anyone can go view this online on the State Corporation Commission database. Gus left ROAV in March of 2011. This information was not sent to the SCC until mid-May of 2011, months after Gus left the ROAV position. Yet ROAV filed this paperwork anyway. ROAV was late, as usual, filing this information with the state and occurred a late fee. That's how they do things.

But I'm an asshole if I say anything about it.

[Wolf Fabrication]

Dan, So why don't you start your own LR club? Or get a core group of people that want to. I imagine there are enough people to do so.

[NoVaKevin]

FYI.....I can tell you that most, if not all of my clients when I was in public accounting, had incorrect officer listings. The states are lucky if it ever gets updated and filed timely. Its pretty trivial.

[dchapman]

Dan, So why don't you start your own LR club? Or get a core group of people that want to. I imagine there are enough people to do so.

Why do we need a club at all?

[Wolf Fabrication]

Why do we need a club at all?

Because people want to belong to something and get the sticker and tshirt. I would assume an "organization" has the collective power to organize larger events and bring a reputable national event to the east coast.

[dchapman]

FYI.....I can tell you that most, if not all of my clients when I was in public accounting, had incorrect officer listings. The states are lucky if it ever gets updated and filed timely. Its pretty trivial.

Yes, it is trivial. But it's someones job within the club to update this information annually and on time. Just like it's someones job to take meeting minutes, and keep accurate accounting records. But no one within ROAV does this. ROAV has not filed a tax return in 13 years, maybe longer. ROAV has not paid sales tax on merchandise sold in just as long. It's someones job to take care of all this. If they decide to accept the nomination to do this job then they should do it and they should be held accountable.

But that's not the way it is.

Does anyone disagree? Am I the only one who see's things this way?

------ Follow up post added July 25th, 2011 08:06 PM ------

Because people want to belong to something and get the sticker and tshirt. I would assume an "organization" has the collective power to organize larger events and bring a reputable national event to the east coast.

I understand what you're getting at and I see where you're going with it. So why not just join Virginia 4-Wheel Drive Association?

It's because you want a Land Rover exclusive club. You bought a Land Rover and you want to see other Land Rovers in action doing some of the same type stuff you like to do with your Land Rover. Am I right?

Looking over some of the post-trail/trip reports, you like doing some moderate wheeling and camping. Correct? Is that all you like to do with your Land Rover? Or are you interested in using your Land Rover in other ways, too? Some people like to go rock crawling in their Land Rover. Others like to take extended trips in their Rover to other states. Some people like driving their Rovers on the beach. Are they wrong for wanting to do this? Or is the only thing Land Rovers are good for is moderate wheeling and roof-top-tent camping?

I think you would agree that Rovers are good for many different things. I think that's the reason people join clubs; they like to learn about what others do with their Land Rovers. Over time these people fall into a category. Some like overlanding; some like rock crawling; some like mall shopping; some just like to camp; some like to fish; some like the mud... these people go on to build their trucks the way they want them. Some are down-right dumb, others are pretty fucking cool; some don't work so well while others are kickass.

Lets look at the National Rally for a second since you brought it up. You would like to see a National Rally type event on the east coast. There must be something about the National Rally that interests you. If all the Rovers looked the same would the National still be cool? If everyone at the National followed each other single-file down the same roads would it still be fun? Or do you like the National because they offer a verity of options to take part in?

I've been to the National Rally in CO before and I enjoyed it. I spent 3-days on the trails doing the type of wheeling I enjoy the most - rock crawling. CO had some amazing trails and it's very much different from east coast wheeling. It was pretty fucking awesome, actually. However, if rock crawling was not my thing, I could have gone on some more scenic trials. Some trails went to 13,000 feet through Telluride; or I could have taken some fire roads through some canyons and maybe even went repelling or swimming.

The point is, the National Rally does not only cater to the moderate wheelers and camper, it caters to a verity of people.

The east coast equivalent of the National Rally is the MAR event. Lets look at MAR 2011 for a minute. Where is it? The same place as last year, correct? Willow Hill farm. This property is what, 300 acres? 300 acres is a big difference from the property the National Rally has to work with. But what does this 300 acres offer? I really do not know as I have not been there. Everyone tells me the camping is great, but that's about it. I hear they have a few trails, but nothing hard. I also hear they had 231 trucks last year and the trails were jammed packed like a mall parking lot on black-Friday. I hear there was a mud pit down the street. I hear they had some shitty bands playing loudly all weekend. I hear they had pony rides.

Did you attend this MAR event? If so, why? Was it because of all the Rovers that were going to be there? Did you want to see what others have done to their trucks? Did you go to get drunk?

When people sign up for this type of stuff they typically have a reason. That's why they join clubs, they're wanting something to do. It might be a father wanting to take their son out for some camping and off-road driving and bonding. Dad might want to give their son some memories and something to talk about. Dad joined this club for something to do with his family other than staring at the X-Box all night. Or whatever...maybe he wanted to meet girls who liked Rovers, or wanted to meet other people who mud bog. Dad joined this club to meet like-minded people who he enjoyed.

Does the current MAR location have what many are looking for? Does ROAV offer this type activity to these people? Or is it the same old event year-after-year with nothing new?

Here is what I'm getting at. In order for a club to be successful they have to offer verity. You don't eat at the same restaurant every night and you don't camp in the same location every week. The people who organize the National Rally understand this and that's why they switch things up yearly. The old earls Pond property was successful because of the rain, IMO. That place was fun when it rained and when no rain came in 2007 it was actually pretty boring - there was nothing to do.

So here ROAV sits for the 3rd year in a row with a shitty venue. No trails, no excitement, nothing to do. I don't know what the event will be like this year, but we'll soon see. I can count on one hand the number of people going. In past years we had over 30 trucks in our group alone. But the reason the people I know are not going is because the event does not offer them anything. The venue does not offer them anything and the club does not offer them anything.

So if you're going to have an organization trying to put forth a collective effort to achieve a common goal, you have got to offer, and be open to, verity. One person cannot offer all of this. You asked me why I don't just start my own club....and the answer is because one person can't. It takes a lot of like-minded people who are open to a verity of different ways. And that's the problem with ROAV, they just will not listen to their fucking members. Hell, they will not even reply to them! If you even want to see a National Rally type event on the east coast, ROAV has the best chance to make that happen right now. But it's not going to happen if all you do is agree with what ROAV has been doing. If you want to see a larger National Rally type event out here, you have got to get these moron to change venues to some place that offers more verity to everyone, and you have got to vote in a group of officers who are willing to interact with the membership. I thought for sure Doug, John, Dan and Gus would have been these people and that's one reason why I renewed my membership after the elections this year. But I was wrong, they are just like the other close-minded morons they replaced.

In order for ROAV, or any club, to be successful, they need a goal to work towards. A mission. I bet if you asked any of the Board members what their mission was, you would not even get a response. You're not worthy enough for a response. It's not your club.

[Hammertime]

Well said, Chapman for President!

[Chris Vitale]

Dan,
Are you planning on running another event at the cove this year?
Inquiring minds want to know! ;)

[dchapman]

No, no plans this year. John Tackley is gone from roav so I have no motivation to do an anti-mar.

But if someone else does it I will come. Could probably get 60 trucks easy this year.

[Chris Vitale]

Not trying to instigate an anti-MAR. Just looking to attend a MAR like event (LR enthusiasts, social events, family atmosphere, vendors, etc...) but with 4-wheeling. The event venue would be a huge plus if it cut down on the commute from the NYC area too...but that last part on location was just selfish of me.

WOW. I think I took a huge 180...I used to be a Ban Dan kind of guy and ironically now find myself jumping on the Dan Wagon.

All cliches aside, I believe Dan makes many valid points when it comes to what MAR attendees are looking for....that I happen to agree with. It may make sense for the MAR BOD to conduct a survey of it's members, and past members, to inquire what we want in an event...helping remove subjectivity from the equation.

I also support Dan with the assertion that YOUR silence is an indication that you're in agreement with the decisions being made. However, if you're sitting on the fence, contemplating not attending MAR this year, you should speak up...privately or publicly.

I chose publicly to try and help rally the troops for change...nevertheless, please speak up either way. Every member should be heard.

[airbornrover]

Not a member. But from what I have read over the various boards the BOD has not done anything for transparency, ie accounting, meetings etc. People keep talking about this and that site (events) but the BOD has not communicated the reasons for going with this or that site.
I will say that in my professional experience you can not always satisfy everyone. But this does not have that feel to it.

[pushngo]

Realistically if it were not for MAR I don't believe ROAV would have that many members.

You figure that you have to become a member for their insurance requirements so you are not really joining at will but because you must. I would like to know the numbers of out of state "members" and MAR only attendees vs the people that join because they want to.

I know a few people that were very strong supporters that have said that this is the last chance for ROAV at MAR and think if it flops there will be a new fall destination for next year.

I have always been a supporter of their work but the way they are going is a downward spiral IMHO.

[MC22958]

For the last three years MAR has been less than what a lot of people wanted. I think the club tried to change things up with a little with less late night crazy wheeling and what that was all about. I must admit they achieved that goal! The problem was they went way overboard. I do believe that if we still had the use of Pearls Pond we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the loss of Pearls left the club searching for a good location. This has what has brought the club to its current situation. It just might be time for us to realize that MAR will not be what it was five years ago. If you think that, then who is going to step in and do another Kick Ass MAR, of old, style event? If you look for private property then you start to limit locations and options. If you decide to use a for profit location then you too are limited to a few locations. I do think the possibility of finding a private property that would accept a large crowd is getting harder and harder to find.
I hope that the ROAV board has a wonderful MAR planned with plenty of things to do, but haven't heard a thing yet.

[Robbie Donaldson]

which is why the Cove seems like an excellent venue until a suitable property can be identified and cultivated. i realize ROAV did Cove for their Spring venue and Halloween last year, so not sure why they are so against Cove for MAR? Seems like an excellent option for the large crowd that MAR brings with something for everyone. No work weekends required, onsite facilities, no public roads to trail heads, night time wheeling, everything.

[dchapman]

Damn, where were all you people at the last 3-years when we were going to the Cove?

Still nothing but crickets from ROAV. I guess the "leaders" are working hard for their members and have no time to reply.

If MAR is a flook this year, I say we start planning a 2012 event for August. Something before the kids have to go back to school, and once the July heat dies down. If not August, maybe May.

[Rugbier]

I know there is a Club ready to do a MAR like event to suit all our needs/ expectations that is waiting for ROAV to announce the location officially.

If at the same place as last year, well a NEW MAR will be created, AKAIK the MAR it is not a copyrighted name nor it can be, so the will call it MAR as well

[pushngo]

There are a few clubs and individuals looking at events and trying to do something every month. The N/E Guys are working hard, SCARR, Uhharrie, Ohio has the Wilds which is a good event and will be better next year because the organizers listen to the attendees. ROTR spring and fall which would be an awesome event to be held at the Cove the last week of Sept instead of Nov.(Just a thought)

I know the Vendors at MAR are getting pissed with the cost and the lack of attendance.

[dchapman]

I like the idea of a "MAR" at the Wilds.

[draaronr]

There are a few clubs and individuals looking at events and trying to do something every month. The N/E Guys are working hard, SCARR, Uhharrie, Ohio has the Wilds which is a good event and will be better next year because the organizers listen to the attendees. ROTR spring and fall which would be an awesome event to be held at the Cove the last week of Sept instead of Nov.(Just a thought)

I know the Vendors at MAR are getting pissed with the cost and the lack of attendance.:) is that from personal experience?

[pushngo]

:) is that from personal experience?

Not so much me, I bring my own tent and other than my time I am not overly exposed. They have always been good about setting up an area but some people/ businesses travel twice as far as me rent tents staff it and just are not getting a return Return=exposure

------ Follow up post added July 27th, 2011 10:05 AM ------

I like the idea of a "MAR" at the Wilds.

I think the Wilds has its own idenity we need a NEW MAR run by a group that wants to make it happen.

[130Tdi]

I know there is a Club ready to do a MAR like event to suit all our needs/ expectations that is waiting for ROAV to announce the location officially.

If at the same place as last year, well a NEW MAR will be created, AKAIK the MAR it is not a copyrighted name nor it can be, so the will call it MAR as well

Gentlemen,
I am a ROAV board member. Due to business time contraints I missed the last board meeting so am not up to speed on the latest. The location for this years event was formally announced by the previous board and a contract/lease agreement signed with Mr.Catlett the land owner. The Catlett family had offered a large parcel of land close to the rally site thats currently in timber to be developed into a trail network for this years event. After 3+ mos of trying to coordinate with the family to meet @ and walk the property that finally happened in early June. We the club expressed our desire to immediately get on with scheduling work week ends to build some additional trails on the property . The family member who owns the parcel decided the third week of June that after discussing it with his legal counsel that he didn't want the legal liability. Since receiving that information the third week of June two other properties in the immediate vicinity have been looked @ and we have also been in contact with the owners of the Pearls Pond property. Having missed the last meeting due to travel I'm not sure what the latest is. Two or three of the other board members should make it to Rausch this weekend so I'll know more then.

What Mr. Crandall says above is increasingly true. Finding private lands in a county where such an event can be held is increasingly difficult. The 2009 event held in Bowling Green Virginia was on a large grain farm with lots of acreage and potential but that County actually put the kibosh on returning to that venue. Last years event held @ Willow Hill farm was all put together in about 8 weeks time and was great event except for the fact that after several inches of rain the night before the trails that weren't submerged or deemed of limits by land owners weren't challenging. My family was approached last year to host the event with camping on my property and the trails on my fathers. Having visited MAR @ Pearls Pond and @ Oak Ridge my father wouldn't even remotely consider it, and this is someone who has owned Land Rovers for most of the past 40 yrs.

The current elected board isn't averse to the Cove location @ all. I think one and all love the place.
The club will have had two events @ off road parks this year the Cove in May and Rausch Creek this weekend. This certainly isn't a case of the club not trying to cater to the off roading desires of it's membership. Clearly the job @ hand is to try to cater to the wants and desires of the membership and grow that membership.
Hopefully one of the other board members will respond with the latest.

[dchapman]

Doug,
What kind of contract or lease does ROAV have with the Willow Hill land owner? I thought ROAV was not paying for that venue.

Also, if you missed a board meeting, why can't you just read the meeting minutes to get up to speed? Better yet, why can't the meeting minutes just be posted so all members know what is going on?

[130Tdi]

Doug,
What kind of contract or lease does ROAV have with the Willow Hill land owner? I thought ROAV was not paying for that venue.

Also, if you missed a board meeting, why can't you just read the meeting minutes to get up to speed? Better yet, why can't the meeting minutes just be posted so all members know what is going on?

Dan last meeting/conf call was last night. Minutes are usually typed up and emailed before the next scheduled meeting for reference. The board has voted on and approved posting the minutes to the website forum section and its my understanding the minutes from this years board meetings have been given to Tommy the webmaster to post.

[stocker]

Hope you guys get something figured out. I have the weekend scheduled off at my new job in Pittsburgh, so Adam and I are hoping something worth while out east is gonna happen.

Scot

[Chris Vitale]

Disappointing news.

The Willow Farm venue is not ideal for MAR, and while the additional 90 acres seems like an opportunity to scratch the 4-wheeling itch...it doesn't solve many of the problems with this site...it's like putting a bandaid over a gunshot wound.

I understand that the new BOD are dealing with cleaning up someone else's mess...but I wish the new BOD would just cut the losses to stop the bleeding, and make monumental strides to move the club forward...beginning with MAR this year.

Forget the buyout cost to get out of the Willow Farm contract...think about the opportunity dollars in rebuilding the MAR attendance and ROAV membership base.

Too much bad blood has been spilt over this MAR venue, and the previous two MAR venues...It's time to take true corrective action.

[MC22958]

Gentlemen,
I am a ROAV board member. Due to business time contraints I missed the last board meeting so am not up to speed on the latest. The location for this years event was formally announced by the previous board and a contract/lease agreement signed with Mr.Catlett the land owner. The Catlett family had offered a large parcel of land close to the rally site thats currently in timber to be developed into a trail network for this years event. After 3+ mos of trying to coordinate with the family to meet @ and walk the property that finally happened in early June. We the club expressed our desire to immediately get on with scheduling work week ends to build some additional trails on the property . The family member who owns the parcel decided the third week of June that after discussing it with his legal counsel that he didn't want the legal liability. Since receiving that information the third week of June two other properties in the immediate vicinity have been looked @ and we have also been in contact with the owners of the Pearls Pond property. Having missed the last meeting due to travel I'm not sure what the latest is. Two or three of the other board members should make it to Rausch this weekend so I'll know more then.

What Mr. Crandall says above is increasingly true. Finding private lands in a county where such an event can be held is increasingly difficult. The 2009 event held in Bowling Green Virginia was on a large grain farm with lots of acreage and potential but that County actually put the kibosh on returning to that venue. Last years event held @ Willow Hill farm was all put together in about 8 weeks time and was great event except for the fact that after several inches of rain the night before the trails that weren't submerged or deemed of limits by land owners weren't challenging. My family was approached last year to host the event with camping on my property and the trails on my fathers. Having visited MAR @ Pearls Pond and @ Oak Ridge my father wouldn't even remotely consider it, and this is someone who has owned Land Rovers for most of the past 40 yrs.

The current elected board isn't averse to the Cove location @ all. I think one and all love the place.
The club will have had two events @ off road parks this year the Cove in May and Rausch Creek this weekend. This certainly isn't a case of the club not trying to cater to the off roading desires of it's membership. Clearly the job @ hand is to try to cater to the wants and desires of the membership and grow that membership.
Hopefully one of the other board members will respond with the latest.

Thanks Doug, it is good to hear from somebody on the Board. I hope you guys have fun this weekend.

[dchapman]

The 90 additional acres of trails is either part of the mud bog course or next door to it. Google earth shows it as a pine forest with little elevation change. I can't imagine it will offer very much.

I don't get it.

[pushngo]

Yea me either

I thought the Halloween event last year at the Cove was to gauge the response of the park for MAR. Everybody loved it John saw how great the facilities were and what happens we are back at PP. Then they have a secret event there the same weekend as a RC outing which went well apparently for the few trucks that attended and again this years MAR everything is kept secret till the very end.

The Wilds Crew has asked the attendees what they would like to see changed and already acted on it.

It is not like ROAV is new to the game they once had a decent event and now I can see them loosing it.

Dan I thought about what you said about MAR being at the Wilds and think maybe MAR should be a series with The Wilds being one of the events. ROTR Spring at RC Fall at the Cove, and NELR late summer in North NY Just a thought

[Scottg]

I will still be at MAR regardless but........

What about finding somewhere NEW for any event?!?

Rough Country (Jeep Suspension Manufacturer) recently held an event at the Black Mountain Off Road Park in Harlan, KY with great success.
Here are some videos from the Rough Country Event:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RoughCountryTV#p/u/2/tVK4fV9VLEs
http://www.youtube.com/user/RoughCountryTV#p/u/4/lwU62J17RZk

My GF and I went for a weekend to Harlan and were so pleased that we bought 1 year passes (for the whopping $35 per truck) We camped at the Putney Trailhead because of their reputation on other boards and had a great time. They have the showers everyone wants. They have a large campground. They have cabins (with a/c and DirecTV). They have hook ups for RVs, Welder, Air, and other tools to accomodate the off road enthusiasts too.

The trail passes are $20 for a 30 day pass and the trails are maintained by the county. All are very well marked and color coded with obstacles that range from stock to buggies. This campground also has the only DIRECT access to the trailswith NO highway travel.

This would be a great host for an event with such a wide range of amenities to cater to all enthusiats. The Putney Trailhead staff is more than accepting of events with great rates for everyone.

Putney Trailead site:
http://www.harlancountycampground.com/

Black Mountain Off Road Park:
http://www.harlancountytrails.com/blackmountain.php

I realize that this does not accomodate the NoVa / Richmond crowds but seldom do any ROAV events accomodate the SW Va members and this is 30 miles into KY from the border. I'm not saying that ROAV should hold MAR here but an event would be nice.

Hope to see you all on the trails.

Scott

[dchapman]

It does not benefit the Richmond crowd, so it will not happen. The Cove in Gore,VA would be a much better venue, comparable to Harlin, but ROAV decided not to move the event.

I'll be skipping mar. Again.

[Scottg]

The Cove in Gore,VA would be a much better venue, comparable to Harlin

I've never been to The Cove so I have no basis for comparison..... If this is true I will be heading to the next event there! FWIW... I was really hoping you would be at MAR2011

[dchapman]

I've never been to The Cove so I have no basis for comparison..... If this is true I will be heading to the next event there! FWIW... I was really hoping you would be at MAR2011

I wish I was, too. I took the days off work and planned to go. I'm just not excited about the MAR location this year. It sounds like a lot of folks are not too excited about the MAR location this year. Form what I understand there is a pretty large group skipping MAR and heading to Uwharrie instead later in October (Oct. 21st weekend). Maybe Uwharrie is the new MAR.

[TDI Guy]

I would love to do that trip but too far south for me... I wish more events were planned up north a bit... Actually I don't think the cove would be that bad of a ride but I don't want to go any further south anymore. After the last year haul to MAR it was just not worth the ride in a monsoon rain storm. I got very aggravated.

[Rugbier]

Randy, come to ROTR at Rausch Creek in November

[dchapman]

Randy, come to ROTR at Rausch Creek in November

I can't wait to kick your ass this year on the rock course.

[Rugbier]

I can't wait to kick your ass this year on the rock course.

There is a better chance Mrs Chapman will do that instead you *LOL*

[rijosho]

Gustavo, I call co-pilot!

[Rugbier]

Gustavo, I call co-pilot!

Of course.... you need to be there again, so we take another trophy ;)

[draaronr]

I wish I was, too. I took the days off work and planned to go. I'm just not excited about the MAR location this year. It sounds like a lot of folks are not too excited about the MAR location this year. Form what I understand there is a pretty large group skipping MAR and heading to Uwharrie instead later in October (Oct. 21st weekend). Maybe Uwharrie is the new MAR.

i'm not going to MAR for the first time since 02, kinda bummed really but last two were so disappointing I just can't spend the time on that event until it is a good venue.

[TDI Guy]

Randy, come to ROTR at Rausch Creek in November



I would love to make it.. Maybe just for a day trip.... The wife will be due any day with child #2 then...

I thinks it's only about 2.5 hrs from me...not bad at all


Randy

[dchapman]

There is a better chance Mrs Chapman will do that instead you *LOL*

She said, "bring it".

[MC22958]

i'm not going to MAR for the first time since 02, kinda bummed really but last two were so disappointing I just can't spend the time on that event until it is a good venue.

Aaron, We will miss you dude, but fully understand.

[Rugbier]

She said, "bring it".


You are missing the point, I know T can take it... but YOU on the other hand " PUNK " I doubt it *LOL*













P.S. I better do a good job and not loose or will never hear the end of this :)

[dchapman]

Not only am I going to beat you, I'm going to do it in a Freelander.

[Rugbier]

Not only am I going to beat you, I'm going to do it in a Freelander.

So you are driving your Freelander on 40's? I thought you sold that *LMAO*

[cgalpin]

I love it! Wherever this is happening, I'll be there!

[dchapman]

I love it! Wherever this is happening, I'll be there!

I think it's November 5th at Rausch Creek, but apparently the same people organizing ROAV are also organizing the Rovers On the Rocks event. So who knows when everything will be official.

[ArmyRover]

So you are driving your Freelander on 40's? I thought you sold that *LMAO*

I wondered who owned this thing...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3984097594_bfc2ab6c47.jpg

[crown14]

I wondered who owned this thing...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3984097594_bfc2ab6c47.jpg


Thats a D-lander

[dchapman]

A D-bag, maybe.