Series Power?

[JBinAlabama]

Need some suggestions. We are doing a nut and bolt rebuild on 2each... series 2a with all the rusty parts being prepped to be galvanized.
I need 2 engines total, I have one series petrol that need some work and the second is VERY rough and in parts.
It looks like parts are $500++ to rebuild for the good one and at least double for the one in pieces and then in the end I would have a truck that will barely reach the speed limit.

It sounds goofy, but In the end I would like a machine than can sustain the speed limit.......BUT I don't want to go so far down the rabbit hole that we cant finish the project. This is really about my almost 10 year old learning (and of course QUALITY TIME!) One of his older friends already asks to come over and help, so it must be COOL!

My question is, do i change out the power plant or rebuild the engine I have and purchase another for my brothers. It looks like I can but a turner engineering 2.25 ready to go for 3k or a 200tdi for less? What are your opinions? this will not be a daily driver. I guess with the mount of galvanizing originality is pretty much out the window and I'm sure my son will choose a funky color:rolleyes

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Albersj51]

if I had the funds I would go with a 200tdi; essentially a bolt in swap. Some say it's at the top end of what the gearbox can handle, so be mindful of that.

You could also look at a perkins prima diesel from the UK, but parts may be tricky to source for a reasonable price and time frame, but the same could be said about the 200tdi

[evilfij]

200tdi with the turbo removed seems to be the best option for easy bolt in and cheap.

[Albersj51]

200tdi with the turbo removed seems to be the best option for easy bolt in and cheap.

Good point...without the turbo you could get the cheaper more plentiful discovery 200tdi due to no turbo to foul on the chassis. Roverresource.com imports them as do others, but they're not cheap!

Look up some swap info on expeditionlandrover.info

[phoenix37]

Chevy 292 .....cheap and fast... youd pass the diesel like it was standing still but it wouldnt help you on resale.

.http://s758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/1937phoenix/?action=view&current=IMG_0213.jpg

[rrc.swb]

There is a person in G&R selling a Perkins Prima 2.0 TDI.

http://siteground237.com/~gunsandr/showthread.php?803 (http://siteground237.com/%7Egunsandr/showthread.php?803)

Do your homework and talk to him. He mentioned that he was having fuel problems.

Here is a good site on the Perkins:

http://www.nhua.co.uk/conversion/perkins.htm

[Ren Ching]

I have two GM 3 liter 4 cylinder engines for sale both need work but either one will wake the truck up. PM for details.

This would be a full kit with adapter and everything you need to get going. But like I said, both engines need some kind of work.

Dave

[Firemanshort]

Rover V-8 with a carb

That will make it the most road friendly. Dave's GM 3.0 liters are great options, too. Rover or GM both require a transmission adapter.

[kevkon]

Need some suggestions. It looks like parts are $500++ to rebuild for the good one and at least double for the one in pieces and then in the end I would have a truck that will barely reach the speed limit.

It sounds goofy, but In the end I would like a machine than can sustain the speed limit
My question is, do i change out the power plant or rebuild the engine I have and purchase another for my brothers. It looks like I can but a turner engineering 2.25 ready to go for 3k or a 200tdi for less? What are your opinions? this will not be a daily driver. I guess with the mount of galvanizing originality is pretty much out the window and I'm sure my son will choose a funky color:rolleyes

Thanks for your thoughts!

Begin with the nature of the vehicle and it's limitations. There's something to be said for a stock Series that can't go over 65mph. That being said, there are as posted above many different options to the 2.25. I would start by looking at just how you are going to use the truck and how much you are willing to modify the suspension, braking system, and transmission/ drive system. That's really the right way to approach a power modification. Remember that it's all a chain and was designed as such. Start throwing too much torque on a stock trans and drivetrain and something will give. Put too much hp into it and you have to think about the demands on handling and braking.
I have been going through the same question on my Series. At this point I'm still leaning towards keeping the stock 2.25 and just optimizing it's performance with a re-build.

[Antichrist]

Keep the 2.25 and put an overdrive on it and you have the reliability of the stock engine and better top speed if you really need it. The stock engines will keep plugging away under the worst conditions. I once drove a '72 88 from Bluemont, VA to Leesburg with only one cylinder consistently firing (sometimes a second one would fire). It was slow, but made it and ran fine afterwards once I sorted out the issue. They'll run on really crappy fuel too.
They are very simple engines which a big plus.

[o2batsea]

General Electric F414

[sonoronos]

There's something to be said for a stock Series that can't go over 65mph.

Every once in a while someone does it, but they don't seem to be the same person afterwards. :eek:

[ArmyRover]

I saw a series III maintain 70mph with no overdrive for about 6 miles, shortly afterwards it sat in a parking lot spewing coolant.... :grin

[TeriAnn]

stock fresh 2.25L engine with 8:1 head produces 70HP @4000 RPM, 120 lbft @ 2000 RPM. This is the best you can hope for with a fresh stock 8:1 rebuild.

stock fresh 2.5L petrol produces 83HP @ 4000 RPM, 133 lbft @ 2000 RPM. A fresh 2.25L rebuild with 9:1 head, 2.5L cam & bigger carb might achieve what a bone stock 2.5L gets in HP but with a shorter crank will produce less torque. If you want a performance petrol engine you are better off starting with the longer crank throw, bigger displacement 2.5.

200 tdi gets 111HP @ 4000 RPM & 146 lbft @ 1800 RPM. It is a way stronger engine that gets a LOT better fuel mileage. The Defender version with high mounted turbo has few fit issues in a Series. The Discovery version with its low mounted turbo interferes with a 109 frame.

A 200tdi without the turbo has a similar power output as a stock 2.5L petrol engine and still gets way better fuel mileage. Removing the turbo destresses the engine making it more long term reliable and makes the conversion easier.

A 300tdi requires some adapting to fit a Series gearbox and has a very similar power spec to the 200tdi. 300tdi engines & parts are easier to find.

Someone mentioned a Chevy in-line six. The bigger ones, like the 292 over stresses the stock gearbox and they take a lot of work to stuff into a 4 cylinder engine bay. They are a fairly easy fit in the LR six cylinder bay though.

Someone mentioned the Rover/GM V8. Having a V8 in my truck, I like V8s. However it takes a lot of work & engineering to properly fit one in a 4 cyl engine bay. But it is easier than fitting an in-line six. The whole drive train except for the transfer case would be overstressed and would need to be upgraded if you want good off road reliability. If you go the V8 route, the Rover/GM is the weakest of the small block V8s with the most expensive parts. A small block Ford or Chevy V8 will fit just as well, are WAY more reliable and parts are much cheaper & available off the shelf at any auto parts store. A Ford 5.0L V8 with aluminum heads is about 50 lbs lighter weight than a stock 2.25L LR engine so the suspension & steering characteristics are not compromised. My 5.0 has more HP & torque at idle than the 2.25L petrol has at peak. Highway fuel mileage is about the same (15-16 MPG) but the EFI gives the V8 better stop and go fuel mileage.

Anyway, look at your pocket book to see what you can afford & pick your poison.

[kevkon]

A couple of things to consider. First, there is a lot that can be done to increase the performance of the 2.25 motor and still keep it reliable. In a 88" Series with stock brakes, drivetrain, and suspension I doubt you would want more. Another thing to consider is the vast selection of alternate 4 cyl engines out there that in stock form rival a performance enhanced 2.25 or the Tdi's. Ford alone has a great number of 4cyl varients. Some have efi, some have sohc or dohc and almost all are commonly available. It's all about how much work you want to do to achieve a certain performance level

[JBinAlabama]

WOW, a lot of info here!
I'm not going for a hot rod so a v8 is not necessary.
Already have one of those.

I don't really want to rebuild an engine myself.
We do want reliable and I realize any upgrade to power may require better braking.

If I change to a non rover engine, how much of a ding to the value of the truck will I see?
I have not seen any series for sale with alternate power so I have no idea if it totally kills the value.

[Antichrist]

I saw a series III maintain 70mph with no overdrive for about 6 miles, shortly afterwards it sat in a parking lot spewing coolant.... :grinThen it was in bad shape to begin with.
I maintained 65-70 most of the way from Cleveland to Madison, WI in my Lightweight with the 2.25 petrol, no overdrive.

[TeriAnn]

and I realize any upgrade to power may require better braking.

Why? Do you drive less safely if you have more HP? Drive with less space between you and the car ahead? Speed more?

If you go the speed limit, drive defensively with a safe space between you and the car in front what's the issue? More HP doesn't mean you have to start taking chances and cruisin for a bursin.

On the other hand, I consider front disc brakes an important safety upgrade for 109s. 109 front brakes have 2 leading shoes per side and no trailing shoes (88s have a leading shoe and a trailing shoe all the way around, rear 109 brakes have one leading and one trailing shoe). Having 2 leading shoes on each front wheel allows for greater braking power in the forward direction and almost none in the rearwards direction. This means it can be VERY hard to hold a 109 stationary in a steep nose up position. A potential problem on the trail if you need to stop during an ascent or uphill trail section and there is something or someone behind you that you do not want to roll back into. A dangerous situation is you are driving someplace like San Francisco. Disc front brakes on a 109 allows for good braking in the rearwards direction. 88s already have that.

[ArmyRover]

Then it was in bad shape to begin with.


You have no idea how right you are, I saw it up for sale a few years later and it wasn't worth 1/3rd of what he was asking, knowing it's history.

[JBinAlabama]

@teriann
I meant greater speed = more stopping.
It's not my intention to build a race car and I'm mostly not a stupid driver...if that is what you meant:confused
That said, I will be adding disc brakes at the front......I was saving that question for later to tell the truth
It's an 88" and I may wait until we are finished but my brother said he will stick with the drums on his.
I like SB fords, and I do have some parts on hand from my backdraft cobra.
I had not considered that the ford may be lighter than the 2.25

we basically have no hills in Alabama compared to the rest of north america

@kevkon, I have nothing against the 2.25 but one engine is in pretty darn bad shape and parts will likely be more than a used replacement

@anti.....WHAT?, I had not considered an overdrive, will check prices!

Everyone, what will the deduct in finished value be for having a non rover engine?

------ Follow up post added August 12th, 2011 06:09 PM ------

@teriann
I meant greater speed = more stopping.
It's not my intention to build a race car and I'm mostly not a stupid driver...if that is what you meant:confused
That said, I will be adding disc brakes at the front......I was saving that question for later to tell the truth
It's an 88" and I may wait until we are finished but my brother said he will stick with the drums on his.
I like SB fords, and I do have some parts on hand from my backdraft cobra.
I had not considered that the ford may be lighter than the 2.25

we basically have no hills in Alabama compared to the rest of north america

@kevkon, I have nothing against the 2.25 but one engine is in pretty darn bad shape and parts will likely be more than a used replacement

@anti.....WHAT?, I had not considered an overdrive, will check prices!

Everyone, what will the deduct in finished value be for having a non rover engine?

[Jpayne]

I have a 2.25 diesel five main bearing in my 110 that I keep thinking of replacing. If I had a potential buyer I would think even harder... Just had the head rebuilt a little while ago and it's my DD. 148k on the clock.

[Albersj51]

Google roverdrive gear corp in canada. They make new overdrives that I hear are more robust than the fairey units

[TeriAnn]

I'm mostly not a stupid driver...if that is what you meant:confused

No, it is not you, it is just one of my pet peeves. Take a vehicle with a given mass traveling at a given velocity. It will take the same distance to stop using one set of brakes regardless of it having a 10 HP engine or a 1000 HP engine of the same vehicle weight. Yet everyone says "I'm going to put a bigger engine in it and therefore I need better brakes" . Drives me crazy. Because if you drive safely and within the speed limit it doesn't matter what engine is in it. My take is that if it is safe to drive 55 MPH with a 2.25L it is just as safe to drive 55 MPH with a 427 overhead cam. If it is unsafe with the big engine it is unsafe with the little boat anchor and you should have upgraded the brakes right away instead of waiting for an engine conversion to remind you that the brakes are unsafe.



That said, I will be adding disc brakes at the front......I was saving that question for later to tell the truth
It's an 88" and I may wait until we are finished but my brother said he will stick with the drums on his.

When the time comes I have a web page that you might find useful choosing a kit.

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/discBrake.htm

I like SB fords, and I do have some parts on hand from my backdraft cobra.
I had not considered that the ford may be lighter than the 2.25

we basically have no hills in Alabama compared to the rest of north america

@kevkon, I have nothing against the 2.25 but one engine is in pretty darn bad shape and parts will likely be more than a used replacement

@anti.....WHAT?, I had not considered an overdrive, will check prices!

Everyone, what will the deduct in finished value be for having a non rover engine?

Everyone, what will the deduct in finished value be for having a non rover engine?

A whole lot depends upon how well the conversion is engineered and executed and who is looking at it for possible purchase. Land Rovers are the tinker toys of the car world and many are modified in different ways. There is a large group of people who will pay a premium for bone stock and a large group that will pay a premium for a well engineered and executed conversion. Timm Cooper is a well known fabricator who makes high quality conversions. I've seen some of his conversions sell for at least twice what a bone stock vehicle would go for. Good V8 conversions come with a much stronger drive train, well thought out gearing and power steering (gets the stock steering box out of the way). And I've seen some ratty poorly thought out conversions you almost could not give away.

A 200tdi conversion if well done would probably easily sell for more than a bone stock vehicle and a 2.5L conversion will usually make the truck easier to quickly sell. Most people can not easily tell a 2.25 from a 2.5 at a glance.

Bottom line is "It depends" upon a lot of stuff and a well done conversion does not mean a lower price to anyone who would consider purchasing a vehicle with a conversion.

------ Follow up post added August 12th, 2011 04:46 PM ------

Google roverdrive gear corp in canada. They make new overdrives that I hear are more robust than the fairey units

Also look at the reproduction Santana units manufactured in the Netherlands by Paul Heystee

http://www.heystee-automotive.com (http://www.heystee-automotive.com/)

I know people who are putting them behind Escalade V8s in Land Rovers and are treating them hard. The Santana overdrive stands up to a V8 well (at least according to Tim Cooper and I've seen what he does to his).

While on the site, check out Paul's disc brake conversion kit. I think it is currently the best on the market.

[Wolf Fabrication]

@Teriann: A heavier motor, especially over the front axle will increase stopping distance, that's simple physics. Just like a 3500lb Rover with stock brakes will stop faster than the same truck loaded to 4500lbs. So swapping in a 427 over a 2.25l will indeed affect braking.

[kevkon]

Also consider the diesel engine options. Diesels have little or no compression braking so there is an additional stress put upon the wheel brakes.

As far as how any of the non standard engine swaps will effect the value of a Series truck, I think that largely has to do with how well it is thought out and executed. Take a look at the SIIA 109 with the Cummins 4bt for sale on this forum as an example of a really well executed swap.

[TeriAnn]

@Teriann: A heavier motor, especially over the front axle will increase stopping distance, that's simple physics. Just like a 3500lb Rover with stock brakes will stop faster than the same truck loaded to 4500lbs. So swapping in a 427 over a 2.25l will indeed affect braking.

Except I have not been talking heavier motor in any of my suggested offerings. I think all were within plus 100 lbs to minus 50 lbs. The 427 was just an example of a powerful engine not a suggestion for a swap. But Yes, any increase in mass or increase in velocity will require a longer stopping distance if braking remains constant.

It is just that it bugs me when people assume the ability to reach a given velocity quicker means you need more stopping power even if mass and crusing velocity remain the same.

[mikeslandrover]

Also consider the diesel engine options. Diesels have little or no compression braking so there is an additional stress put upon the wheel brakes.

Eh????:hmm

[kevkon]

Unlike gas engines which use a throttle, diesels don't get vacuum braking when letting off the accelerator. Turbos can provide a little, but it is not the amount you get in a 4 stroke gas engine. It's the reason large trucks are often fitted with a Jake Brake.

TeriAnn, I understand what you are saying but I think that if one is going to up the performance of acceleration then it would be wise to do the same with braking. No, you don't have to, nor do you have to improve the handling (suspension). It would just be prudent.

[mikeslandrover]

What about the 20:1 + compression ratio?
My 200tdi has more engine breaking than the V8 petrol ever had.
You need a vacuum pump for the power assisted brakes.
Exhauster pumps assist the wheel brakes as I understand it.

[kevkon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_braking

And more to your point;http://www.hummerknowledgebase.com/engine/engbrake.html

It's all about vacuum

[mikeslandrover]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_braking

And more to your point;http://www.hummerknowledgebase.com/engine/engbrake.html

It's all about vacuum

Well I never:ohmy

[nathanwind]

I saw a series III maintain 70mph with no overdrive for about 6 miles, shortly afterwards it sat in a parking lot spewing coolant.... :grin

Every once in a while someone does it, but they don't seem to be the same person afterwards. :eek:

My truck, no overdrive, and no spewing coolant when I stopped. Of course, I will admit this is generally only possible in the summer when the top is off - less drag.

[TeriAnn]

My truck, no overdrive, and no spewing coolant when I stopped. Of course, I will admit this is generally only possible in the summer when the top is off - less drag.

Stock gearing & 32 inch dia tyres:

3686 RPM @ 65 MPH
3969 RPM @ 70 MPH :eek:

The 2.25L petrol is happy cruising in the 3200 - 3400 RPM range for long distance highway driving.

[Antichrist]

My truck, no overdrive, and no spewing coolant when I stopped. Of course, I will admit this is generally only possible in the summer when the top is off - less drag.Yeah, I had the tilt & doors off when I drove from Cleveland to Madison.

[JBinAlabama]

Thanks for all the pointers and tips folks!

I think we are leaning toward the 200tdi for ours and the 2.25 petrol for my brothers.
The 2.25 will be headed to the machine shop in the next couple of weeks.

Any suggestions on Springs and shocks?

I'm trying to get it all ready so that when the chassis & Bulkhead comes back from galvanizing we can make it a roller quickly to keep up the little guys interest:)

[o2batsea]

Good luck with finding that 200Tdi.

[junkyddog11]

Good luck with finding that 200Tdi.

?. Not exactly difficult.

[o2batsea]

?. Not exactly difficult.

Where to shop?

[Antichrist]

Any suggestions on Springs and shocks?People seem to be fond of the parabolics as they offer a bit more travel, but I've always just used stock springs, though usually heavier duty than stock as I often seem to be hauling heavy loads.
For shocks I've used Rancho (I forget the part numbers), OEM and some from Nisonger that aren't available any more. I had them left over from when I used to be a Nisonger dealer.

[Albersj51]

You can get them...Rover Resource, Land Rover Imports, ebay, etc. The price tag is a different story.


Where to shop?