suspension question - Scorpion

[asator]

I have a 91 Range Rover and I am going for a suspension overhaul and want at least 2" lift and decent articulation without having to spend 4K on it. I am considering the Scorpion Racing EVO setup. Anyone have any experience with it? good / bad?

[Cube II]

I have a 91 Range Rover and I am going for a suspension overhaul and want at least 2" lift and decent articulation without having to spend 4K on it. I am considering the Scorpion Racing EVO setup. Anyone have any experience with it? good / bad?

I had a good experience.
Almost rolled over RRC on a moderate side slope.

Experience was good as I was outside the Rangie...
:ncomment

[KeithD]

Might want to check out this recent thread on the LRE forum......

http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=267236&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

[asator]

Oh...kay....Keith and Michele, thanks for the info and thanks for saving me from future headaches! Do you or anyone have recommendations for a suspenson setup for the Range Rover? My next thought was the SG 3 link, I have also inquired about Rovertym springs but no reply yet.

[Cube II]

That was a long thread!
In which I gave my 0,000001 cent,
mind it was also referred to S*****n R@***g
customer service and so on in UK.

Lot of (interesting) inputs/comments/reports though.

As you're a forumeer here you have a good chance to get in touch with
some mates who got a SG 3rd link so you could ask more about,
also I would give P44 a look as there's a lot of tech (maybe too much!!!) stuff
and some "interesting" RRs!

I'd go for a custom setup tailored to you with the help of some gurus...
:)

And OH!
I'm the latest guy on earth who could tell you the way to go,
but I think you could say something about your RR as a start!
Winch?Tires?Needs?Blablabla!
:)

[Glenn_Guinto]

...Almost rolled over RRC on a moderate side slope.

Experience was good as I was outside the Rangie...
:ncomment


Just out of curiousity Michele, what other factors where involved in this RRC? Top heavy? Driver Experience? Or is it just pure SR stuff? Like any vehicle, once you lifted it and put all kinds of slinky stuff on it, the roll-over factors will change. It's always a trade off, I know most people find the slinky articulation real sexy and score big on the cool factor, but unfortunately, in the real world it's not everything. It has to be a balance.

We sell Scorpion Racing products here in the US and have a few trucks (Discos) that have the SR Evolution Kit and the +2" Springs/Shocks installed. IMHO, it's a well balanced system between on-road and off-road performance. Granted I haven't seen the Extreme Kit yet in person but I imagine that much articulation will not give you the same stability you had before.

That link that Keith posted is VERY interesting. :)

[Cube II]

AFAIR it was stock more or less (but the kit obviously).
Driver I didn't know.
You might add it was a night stage and it was raining.
Never been there before (me at least).

Owner was mid-aged (older than me for sure) but I couldn't say about experience as-above-I didn't know him.

I have nothing to do with SR as SG or RT or OME or whatever you want.
Same thing happened to a young "enthusiast" with a freshly bought D90,same spot.

Look,it's not my intention to argue,Thor asked infos and I just said what I saw.
Each to his own afterwards.

Cheers

[Glenn_Guinto]

....Look,it's not my intention to argue,Thor asked infos and I just said what I saw.


Me neither... just inquiring... I was just curious to find out, not trying to argue :)



....Each to his own afterwards.

Couldn't agree any better! :grin

[KeithD]

I am no expert either - my 20 yr old 90 still as far as i know has its original springs (thought the shocks appear to be gabriels and I don't think they are). Seems to me though that OME have the best overall reputation and when the time/money comes I would go with them.

[Cube II]

Glenn,
I'm really really glad to hear that,honest.
:)

If you have some spare time and want to find out more
you could give this (http://www.africaland.it/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=2&Forum_Title=%2D+DIBATTITI+%26+NEWS&Topic_Title=LAND+MANIA%3A++IL+GIORNO+DOPO%2E%2E%2E&CAT_ID=15&FORUM_ID=56&TOPIC_ID=3318) a look,there are a couple of pics.

If Matteo (who's been there that time) wants to jump in maybe he could say more.
This should be another "European"
:tounge
point of view.

Anyway,I think you Yanks may have a genetically tuned driving style for these kinda setups!
:toast

P.S.
(actually it's more a poser thing here!)

Follow-up Post:

I am no expert either - my 20 yr old 90 still as far as i know has its original springs

Here's my favourite "duck" again!
:)

Me too!!
I'm about to start messing with springs/shocks combo,but $ is an issue so I'll go for a "el cheapo" custom set up I will not miss to discuss here.
Hopefully soon!
(-17 and UK I'm coming!!!)
:grin

[JohnC]

From the LRE post:

"Some of the posts on here have been nothing but scurrilous hearsay which is IMHO outrageous. It is one thing to take notice of somebody who has had a bad experiance and not follow there lead and another to publicly rubbish them on a BB. I personally know some of you who are guilty of this and quite frankly am appalled.
SR have almost gone out of there way to help me. They don't know me from Adam BTW and I have absolutely nothing to do with them.
I bought a lift kit from them for my 90. It wasn't the cheapest and i'd heard all the bad things about their stuff but decided that as they were the most helpful on the phone they would get my money. They asked what it was, winch fitted or not and how hard I wanted the ride. The bits came and were fitted all within a week. I went to a site the following week and got around very well but on returning home however I noticed that I had a broken rear shock. Got on the phone and spoke to Colin who asked me who had fitted them, I told him that i'd done it and straight away he asked me wether I had removed the cups from the shock mounting plate on the axle. I hadn't but he said he would replace the shock gratis under warranty and I didn't even need to send the old one back! He could have told me to send it back at my expence and made me pay for another one but he didn't. I expect someone is going to say that he knew that I had a Td5 for off roading and could see a big potential spend coming but so what? [/rolleyes]
This supermarket off road thing is really laughable too. Those of you who know me know what I am like and know that a shiney '01 Td5 90 got the same treatment as a not so shiney '79 bobtail RR. So what if someone wants to get into off roading and buys bolt on stuff, who cares? Are you a better driver if you've made all your own gear? The attitude of some stinks (I will name no names but my feeling is most on here know the guilty ones)
Mr Wightman is not excused in this rant either. Although Paul is a good friend of mine and will always be despite his veiws, the only gripe he has with SR is that LRM implied that some of his kit was supplied by them. Paul should have realised that those who matter would have realised this and nothing more would have been said.
The worshipping and a$$licking of the likes of Bucky makes me cringe, it seems as though if you've bought your gear from them you automatically become a personal friend and have the right to quote him on everything. He 'used' to win everything due to the monkey in the passenger seat NOT because he used +2 OME springs!!!
Some of you need to grow up.
I have done most of the winch series events in this country a long time ago in my RR (didn't do the JBS as it wasn't about) and did ok but not brilliant because I wasn't prepared to throw the time and money at it that was needed. I'm glad i'm not involved anymore as i'd hate to be associated with the i'm/my cars better than yours mentality.

[/rant]

And breathe.........

Jon-E-"

Right on the nose.

Michele, an Evo Kit almost made your RR rollover???/ Huh?? Let's see, an Evo Kit is supposed to give you 2" of down travel. It doesn't modify your springs or shocks. Maybe I'm missing something here. What kind of lift do you have? What were the conditions (driving fast, etc) and what angle?

Anyway, if you are considering purchasing SR products in the US just remember that you are purchasing directly from us and not SR. We will guarantee all parts and stand behind them 100%. Scorpion has been doing the same for us. 90% of the LR vendors in the US stand behind their products or the products they sell.

I do agree that most companies (not all) in the UK are pretty greedy and won't speak to you unless you plan on spending mucho dinero but that is not the case here in the US.

BTW, I didn't see anything in the LRE BB that would bad mouth the Evo Kit (maybe I missed something).... I read about their springs and shocks but like someone mentioned you have to remove the cups on the top and bottom of the rear spring perch (Discos only).

Thor, there are many options out there and very good vendors that can supply you with a lift. You indicated that you wanted a 2" lift for your Rangie and that you were looking at the Evo Kit. Like I said before the Evo kit does not give you a lift, instead it allows you 2 more inches of down travel. You can keep your stock springs and shocks and get the extra 2" of down travel with this kit.

With respect to the springs (and this is based on my own experience) I have the Big Blue 3" springs on my 88 RR with Bilstein shocks. The ride is great but as you know the springs sag after a few years of abuse (which ones don't??). My 96 D1 had the OMEs and I replaced them with our own brand (4x4ag). They ride softer than the OMEs and give me a 2.5" "true" lift. Unfortunately we are testing them right now and won't be in production for another 9-12 months. My partner Adrian (98 D1) also has them on his rover along with Koni Heavy Track shocks. I run deCarbon shocks on my 96 D1.

I have the SR springs (2.5" +20% front and +25% rear) with deCarbon +2" shocks, Evo Kit, SR front winch bumper and soon will have the SR rear bumper, sliders and QT protection on my 95 D1. The ride is great and the articulation is awesome. No sagging of the rear springs under load. Last weekend I traveled from NY to VA to attend the Mid Altantic Rally with over 600 lbs of gear in the 95 D1 and it sat level and rides fine.

Thor, since you are out on the West Coast I would recommend that you give EE a call.

Good luck,

John C.

[KeithD]

I'll have that Maxidrive 90 Michele!

[Eric Siepmann]

I have seen some SR stuff. Trailing arms mostly. Not that impressive, especially next to Rockware. Curiously, no one is running their suspension stuff. Alway OME Shocks and springs. The whole dislocation cones seem like an over-engineered solution to me. Especially since retainers are simple reliable and cheaper alternative. Know of three trucks that ditched the noisy cones and dislocation contraptions for retainers this year alone.

EwS

[Cube II]

I'll have that Maxidrive 90 Michele!

ARRRGH!!!!
I'll steal your Rpi V8 then!!!!!
:demented

[JohnC]

I have seen some SR stuff. Trailing arms mostly. Not that impressive, especially next to Rockware. Curiously, no one is running their suspension stuff. Alway OME Shocks and springs. The whole dislocation cones seem like an over-engineered solution to me. Especially since retainers are simple reliable and cheaper alternative. Know of three trucks that ditched the noisy cones and dislocation contraptions for retainers this year alone.

EwS

I can't comment on Rockware other than Matt seems like a great guy. What's your feeling on Equipe 4x4 stuff?

"Curiously, no one is running their suspension stuff." The only reason you haven't seen more SR stuff here in the US is because of it's limited availability.

"Alway OME Shocks and springs." Because there hasn't been many manufacturers of LR shocks and springs.

"whole dislocation cones seem like an over-engineered solution to me. Especially since retainers are simple reliable and cheaper alternative." Cheaper??? Spring retainers work great with soft springs that allow stretch but not soo good on stiff springs.

"Know of three trucks that ditched the noisy cones and dislocation contraptions for retainers this year alone." Which cones? I thought you said you didn't know any trucks with SR stuff on it.

[Cube II]

From the LRE post:
It is one thing to take notice of somebody who has had a bad experiance and not follow there lead and another to publicly rubbish them on a BB.
Absolutely right.

(...)Are you a better driver if you've made all your own gear?
Referring to my DIY suggestions;it's because I would like to be that able (sadly I'm not!)

The worshipping and a$$licking of the likes of Bucky makes me cringe, it seems as though if you've bought your gear from them you automatically become a personal friend and have the right to quote him on everything. He 'used' to win everything due to the monkey in the passenger seat NOT because he used +2 OME springs!!!
I bought from D44 but I realize we're not close friends!
We don't share the same shower yet.
I always liked his 90s and his speedy RR a long before gettin in touch with him.
Maybe I could not like him once met in the flesh but it's another tale.
And yup,he won probably due to great teamwork,but he did.
Nothing wrong with it.


Right on the nose.


Michele, an Evo Kit almost made your RR rollover???/ Huh?? Let's see, an Evo Kit is supposed to give you 2" of down travel. It doesn't modify your springs or shocks. Maybe I'm missing something here. What kind of lift do you have? What were the conditions (driving fast, etc) and what angle?
Do you realize it was NOT my RR?
I clearly wrote it.

Anyway, if you are considering purchasing SR products in the US just remember that you are purchasing directly from us and not SR. I do agree that most companies (not all) in the UK are pretty greedy and won't speak to you unless you plan on spending mucho dinero but that is not the case here in the US
Good to hear that.
And just to let you know my 90 is quite stock,so I'm not involved in any business!

Peace!

[JohnC]

Michele, the first paragraph was a comment from one of the posters on LRE, not mine. Sorry if I confused things.

I did NOT realize that the RR was not yours.

I wasn't expecting you to purchase any products from us. I was just stating that we take customer service seriously here in the US.

[Cube II]

Arrrrrrrrrgh!
You guys will drive me crazy!! :crazy

In a desperate try to clear everything:

Michele, the first paragraph was a comment from one of the posters on LRE, not mine. Sorry if I confused things.
Erm,ok,hold your horses,I knew it was not yours as I took part in that thread too but I thought you were making it yours...ouch...(headache)
There's no need to be sorry,me I'm sorry too...
(bigger headache)

I did NOT realize that the RR was not yours
OK OK,shame it was late night as I wanted to take some pics of the outing.
This could have been useful maybe to discuss about slopes and so on.
Oh,speed was reaaaaaaaally low,1st or 2nd lowbox.
I reckon a good driver could have taken something better outta hat,
and probably the dude behind the wheel wasn't.

But!It's a common thought they inhibit your feeling while traversing side slopes maybe?
(question)
Compared to a retained (stock) setup...

I wasn't expecting you to purchase any products from us. I was just stating that we take customer service seriously here in the US.
I bet it's so,if I had the chance I'd buy a lot of stuff from US!
:rolleyes

Er,I'm 30mins far from E*uipe stable and I bought some bits in the past,
so if I'd want to do it'd be a snap!
:)

Again,peace!

[Eric Siepmann]

"I can't comment on Rockware other than Matt seems like a great guy. What's your feeling on Equipe 4x4 stuff?"

Wouldn't put any of it on my 90. Why? I would under utilize it anyway. If I need it I buy it. I trail ride mostly moderate trails so why would I want that on my truck? To look good at the mall? The LR springs and Billsteins work well for me. I'd rather spend the money on things more useful to my situation - like armouring the rest of my rig, pull pall, maybe dedicated off road tires on steel wheels.

"The only reason you haven't seen more SR stuff here in the US is because of it's limited availability."
What's so limited about it? Guy in the club sells it here in Chicago. If you want it you'll find it and buy it regardless of location. Hell guys are buying LR 300tdi's and td5's aren't they?

"Because there hasn't been many manufacturers of LR shocks and springs."
Really? Bearmach, RTE, OME, Iron Man 4x4, ... all make springs for LRs. Koni, Fox, Billstein, Ironman 4x4, OME, .... all make shocks. I am sure there are more, but that lists comes to mind quickly.

"Cheaper??? Spring retainers work great with soft springs that allow stretch but not soo good on stiff springs"
What's your point? Why would you put HD springs on your truck if you don't have a rack and don't use the truck in that capacity? I would assume that if you're going to upgrade your suspension you'd do it wisely... Like choosing the right springs

"Which cones? I thought you said you didn't know any trucks with SR stuff on it."
Actually, come to think of it, I know of a 110 with SR trailing arms in the club. As far as the other folks, I was merely making the point that people with similar product decided to change to retainers from their experience with a similar product.

EwS

[JohnC]

[QUOTE=Eric Siepmann]"I can't comment on Rockware other than Matt seems like a great guy. What's your feeling on Equipe 4x4 stuff?"

Wouldn't put any of it on my 90. Why? I would under utilize it anyway. If I need it I buy it. I trail ride mostly moderate trails so why would I want that on my truck? To look good at the mall? The LR springs and Billsteins work well for me. I'd rather spend the money on things more useful to my situation - like armouring the rest of my rig, pull pall, maybe dedicated off road tires on steel wheels.

Why criticize components that you would never use?

"The only reason you haven't seen more SR stuff here in the US is because of it's limited availability."
What's so limited about it? Guy in the club sells it here in Chicago. If you want it you'll find it and buy it regardless of location. Hell guys are buying LR 300tdi's and td5's aren't they?

And who's this guy? Does he have a website? I checked Scorpions list of distributors and I don't see anyone in Chicago.

"Because there hasn't been many manufacturers of LR shocks and springs."
Really? Bearmach, RTE, OME, Iron Man 4x4, ... all make springs for LRs. Koni, Fox, Billstein, Ironman 4x4, OME, .... all make shocks. I am sure there are more, but that lists comes to mind quickly.

We all know what the problem is with Bearmach and other manufacturers.....

"Which cones? I thought you said you didn't know any trucks with SR stuff on it."
Actually, come to think of it, I know of a 110 with SR trailing arms in the club. As far as the other folks, I was merely making the point that people with similar product decided to change to retainers from their experience with a similar product.

Similar, not the same as ours.... my cones don't make any noise....

[Mike Hippert]

Getting back to the question, what do you plan on doing with your 90? Do you like a hard or soft ride, do you carry 500lbs of gear with you?

I have a 91 Range Rover and I am going for a suspension overhaul and want at least 2" lift and decent articulation without having to spend 4K on it. I am considering the Scorpion Racing EVO setup. Anyone have any experience with it? good / bad?

[Eric Siepmann]

"Why criticize components that you would never use?"
I wouldn't. Which is why I simply said I the equipe stuff wasn't for me and I wouldn't buy it. Where's the critiscm in my statement? I originally stated that I wasn't impressed by the SR as compared to the Rockware on my truck. I researched SR and decided against, but I am still entitled to an opinion. What's critical about the comparison? I never made claims to SR's performance, features or price.

And who's this guy? Does he have a website? I checked Scorpions list of distributors and I don't see anyone in Chicago.
Yes, I'll find it at home tonight and PM you if you'd like.


"We all know what the problem is with Bearmach and other manufacturers..... "
Again, what's your point. You originally said there weren't viable producers of LR springs and shocks. There are. So I can't state an opinion or comparison but you can? You're statement is much more critical and negative than my original comparison.

"Similar, not the same as ours.... my cones don't make any noise"
Good for your cones. I don't care. I simply stated that others with a similar product and engineering solution switched.

So why are you so defensive about all of this? If you believe in the product stand by it and support you customers. Let the product stand on it's merits.

By the way, do you run your own products? Speak from personal experience?

EwS

[Cube II]

:confused
Boys,
if all this mess doesn't give Thor a headache I don't know what can do...

[Glenn_Guinto]

Whoa... looks like we got some party going on in here... :grin

No need for all the animosity. John runs the Scorpion Racing evo kit, springs and shocks and various other SR products, and he does wheel his truck - so he speaks from experience as well. We chose to sell Scorpion Racing products (among others) to find a niche and offer more choices to the LR community. Why crowd the sea of vendors specializing in OMEs and others (which are good products and we do offer them as well but not as much as SR). There are already more established vendors that have them and sell them very well.

Although there are some customer services issues that our UK folks experienced with Scorpion Racing, we have yet to see that from them. And as John pointed out, we will (4x4ag) stand behind the products that we carry, whether SR or others. The LR community is a very small, close knit community and we all know you can't shit without everyone in the community smelling it. :grin

As far as the "other guy" in Chicago selling SR stuff, is it Ron Klein? I betcha it is. He no longer does it and had some business issues I was told.

Peace out!

Follow-up Post:

:confused
Boys,
if all this mess doesn't give Thor a headache I don't know what can do...

LOL...... That's right...

Thor, sorry for this mess... if you're looking for a +2" lift, go to the vendors section. OME, RTE, and others are pretty good products as well. :grin

[Eric Siepmann]

Yup. it was Ron. It was in his last leaflet earlier this year, early spring if I remeber.

EwS

[asator]

John,

Now that there is some balance to the opinion of the suspension question, I will do a bit more research and decide. Thanks for the input.
Thor

From the LRE post:

"Some of the posts on here have been nothing but scurrilous hearsay which is IMHO outrageous. It is one thing to take notice of somebody who has had a bad experiance and not follow there lead and another to publicly rubbish them on a BB. I personally know some of you who are guilty of this and quite frankly am appalled.
SR have almost gone out of there way to help me. They don't know me from Adam BTW and I have absolutely nothing to do with them.
I bought a lift kit from them for my 90. It wasn't the cheapest and i'd heard all the bad things about their stuff but decided that as they were the most helpful on the phone they would get my money. They asked what it was, winch fitted or not and how hard I wanted the ride. The bits came and were fitted all within a week. I went to a site the following week and got around very well but on returning home however I noticed that I had a broken rear shock. Got on the phone and spoke to Colin who asked me who had fitted them, I told him that i'd done it and straight away he asked me wether I had removed the cups from the shock mounting plate on the axle. I hadn't but he said he would replace the shock gratis under warranty and I didn't even need to send the old one back! He could have told me to send it back at my expence and made me pay for another one but he didn't. I expect someone is going to say that he knew that I had a Td5 for off roading and could see a big potential spend coming but so what? [/rolleyes]
This supermarket off road thing is really laughable too. Those of you who know me know what I am like and know that a shiney '01 Td5 90 got the same treatment as a not so shiney '79 bobtail RR. So what if someone wants to get into off roading and buys bolt on stuff, who cares? Are you a better driver if you've made all your own gear? The attitude of some stinks (I will name no names but my feeling is most on here know the guilty ones)
Mr Wightman is not excused in this rant either. Although Paul is a good friend of mine and will always be despite his veiws, the only gripe he has with SR is that LRM implied that some of his kit was supplied by them. Paul should have realised that those who matter would have realised this and nothing more would have been said.
The worshipping and a$$licking of the likes of Bucky makes me cringe, it seems as though if you've bought your gear from them you automatically become a personal friend and have the right to quote him on everything. He 'used' to win everything due to the monkey in the passenger seat NOT because he used +2 OME springs!!!
Some of you need to grow up.
I have done most of the winch series events in this country a long time ago in my RR (didn't do the JBS as it wasn't about) and did ok but not brilliant because I wasn't prepared to throw the time and money at it that was needed. I'm glad i'm not involved anymore as i'd hate to be associated with the i'm/my cars better than yours mentality.

[/rant]

And breathe.........

Jon-E-"

Right on the nose.

Michele, an Evo Kit almost made your RR rollover???/ Huh?? Let's see, an Evo Kit is supposed to give you 2" of down travel. It doesn't modify your springs or shocks. Maybe I'm missing something here. What kind of lift do you have? What were the conditions (driving fast, etc) and what angle?

Anyway, if you are considering purchasing SR products in the US just remember that you are purchasing directly from us and not SR. We will guarantee all parts and stand behind them 100%. Scorpion has been doing the same for us. 90% of the LR vendors in the US stand behind their products or the products they sell.

I do agree that most companies (not all) in the UK are pretty greedy and won't speak to you unless you plan on spending mucho dinero but that is not the case here in the US.

BTW, I didn't see anything in the LRE BB that would bad mouth the Evo Kit (maybe I missed something).... I read about their springs and shocks but like someone mentioned you have to remove the cups on the top and bottom of the rear spring perch (Discos only).

Thor, there are many options out there and very good vendors that can supply you with a lift. You indicated that you wanted a 2" lift for your Rangie and that you were looking at the Evo Kit. Like I said before the Evo kit does not give you a lift, instead it allows you 2 more inches of down travel. You can keep your stock springs and shocks and get the extra 2" of down travel with this kit.

With respect to the springs (and this is based on my own experience) I have the Big Blue 3" springs on my 88 RR with Bilstein shocks. The ride is great but as you know the springs sag after a few years of abuse (which ones don't??). My 96 D1 had the OMEs and I replaced them with our own brand (4x4ag). They ride softer than the OMEs and give me a 2.5" "true" lift. Unfortunately we are testing them right now and won't be in production for another 9-12 months. My partner Adrian (98 D1) also has them on his rover along with Koni Heavy Track shocks. I run deCarbon shocks on my 96 D1.

I have the SR springs (2.5" +20% front and +25% rear) with deCarbon +2" shocks, Evo Kit, SR front winch bumper and soon will have the SR rear bumper, sliders and QT protection on my 95 D1. The ride is great and the articulation is awesome. No sagging of the rear springs under load. Last weekend I traveled from NY to VA to attend the Mid Altantic Rally with over 600 lbs of gear in the 95 D1 and it sat level and rides fine.

Thor, since you are out on the West Coast I would recommend that you give EE a call.

Good luck,

John C.