coolant - which to use

[scoloco]

I know its a good idea to swap out the coolant in the v8 pretty often. I'm due. I also know that we need to be careful about which coolant to use with the aluminium engine.
What should I get?
-scott

[Davis]

The orange prestone. If, for some reason, you are using the green, make sure you flush it all out as they are not compatible. I would open both your engine drain plugs to do this, if it is the case.

[DaveHuny]

Article (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_care_sat/1272246.html?page=2&c=y) briefly explaining the colors of antifreeze.

[scoloco]

Current stuff is green. So, suck out what I can from the radiator; pull and drain from both engine drain plugs (after I find out where they are).
Am I good to fillup with the orange, or do I need to do something more?

On another note, I read something somewhere about DexCool - it also needs frequent changing; its not the super long life coolant it was originally marketed as. Just an fyi.

[DaveHuny]

Or just refill with green. All my LR's have always had the green stuff.

[norros]

Hmm... That all depends on how much you're willing to spend and how much it matters to you if your gauge is 1/2 the way up the meter or 1/3. I like the purple stuff, AMSOIL Propylene Glycol, which actually is a bright yellow because they changed the formula.
Yes, it's expensive ($25 a gallon) but ever since I started using it the temp gauge doesn't go past 1/3 even in this hot Tallahassee, Florida weather. Maybe close to 1/2 if I run the thing for hours and hours, but it does a great job keeping things cool.

just my 2 bits...

Nicholas

[DaveHuny]

Hmm... That all depends on how much you're willing to spend and how much it matters to you if your gauge is 1/2 the way up the meter or 1/3. I like the purple stuff, AMSOIL Propylene Glycol, which actually is a bright yellow because they changed the formula.
Yes, it's expensive ($25 a gallon) but ever since I started using it the temp gauge doesn't go past 1/3 even in this hot Tallahassee, Florida weather. Maybe close to 1/2 if I run the thing for hours and hours, but it does a great job keeping things cool.

just my 2 bits...

Nicholas

Sorry for taking this off topic, but it sounds like you forgot to put your thermostat back in :) The thermostat is what keeps your engine running at a certain temperature. If your coolant is lower than 190° then your thermostat isn't opening, and your coolant isn't moving through the radiator. Or your guage reads much lower (1/3 = 190° vs. 1/2=190°) than mine.

[norros]

Nah Dave... Just installed a brand new thermostat/temp sender/water pump and it's okee-dokee.

;)

I've tested both coolants, and the Amsoil is just better. It will reach the 1/2 mark, but generally stays under it, and doesn't overheat ever. It gets to about 110 degrees F down here with wicked humidity...


Nicholas

[DaveHuny]

Then your gauge must read hotter than mine. I would test your coolant temp with a kitchen thermometer (don't lick it;) ) so you know if it's "high" when it's at the middle.

[norros]

Yes, I tested the thermostat before I installed it and it worked fine, and even before the 'old thermostat' unit failed, it read just the same. I mean, it MAY NOT BE at 1/3, but it's definitely lower than 1/2... In any case, it works and when I've used regular coolant the gauge is higher.

Hmm...

:hmm

N

[Rod Hayward]

I'm suprised to see a coolant thread go this long without mention of "water wetter". Has that stuff fallen out of favor? (There's alot of talk about it on the F.A.Q. section, but it's all 4-5 years old)

[norros]

Yes, I believe Redline's Water Wetter (I'm sure there's others) can be used with regular 'green' antifreeze... Synthetic/Propylene Glycol Antifreeze such as Amsoil does not require any additives, at least that's what Amsoil says. Same goes for their 'other' synth oils...


Nicholas

[artm]

$25 a gallon for coolant? Pathetic.

Always used Zerex green from 1975 on. Corvette, TR6, Jetta GLI, all Rovers. It was best for aluminum then and it's still more than good enough.

If you change it annually you certainly don't need the expensive stuff. Stick to the tried and true.

[norros]

$25 a gallon for coolant? Pathetic.

Always used Zerex green from 1975 on. Corvette, TR6, Jetta GLI, all Rovers. It was best for aluminum then and it's still more than good enough.

If you change it annually you certainly don't need the expensive stuff. Stick to the tried and true.

And you'd know right ? I forgot you were the internet authority for Coolant too! Sheesh, I gotta keep up.
Speaking from someone who'd be scared to climb a rooftop tent ladder I should have known where your strenghts lie...
Quote: "looks kinda scary"... :kiss

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeez...lol

Nicholas

[artm]

1. Well, I do know. I know that first I saw the commercials showing Zerex's superiority and then I followed up by reading it in print in two car mags. So, based on that blind faith and 30 years of use I can say what I said: it works just fine for me. Amsoil is just overpriced crap - you should know, that's all you seem to tout!

2. You should read posts more carefully. I said climbing that front ladder was scary - for a girl! Even Dave agreed it is not meant for climbing. The last thing I need is for my girl to scramble down that thing to take a pee in the middle of the night.

3. $25 a gallon for coolant. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeez...lol!

You're just an Amsoil bitch. :)

[norros]

Artie,

Ah... I anxiously awaited your nominal response... Careful now & calm down there little man... Yes, I do enjoy Amsoil, it seems to work and even in the engine it runs much smoother than when I had 'mineral' in there ... Ever hear the term 'don't knock it till you tried it' ?
Maybe you should get back on your heart med's and calm down a bit before you blow a blood vessel.

1. You take commercials & car mag's as the gospel eh ? Very funny. I work for an advertising agency and I know better ... And as far as Amsoil being crap... why not research it on the internet or talk to 'others' who know... It's the best out there, even if money were not an issue. (Amsoil crap ? Where do you live under a rock ?... you sound like you just got your driver's license).

BUT-- Let's say money was not an issue... You're telling me that the xerex stuff is better than Amsoil ? Based on a commercial you saw 'years ago' ? Isn't it time to excel and not just 'get by' or as you say 'works fine for me' ?

2. Yes, I did read the post, quite carefully in fact, and didn't feel the need to respond at the time... BUT, now that you bring it up, you asked if a woman was to be expected to climb up & down the ladder... Then, you said 'looks kinda scary', and then you said you'd prefer it if the ladder was mounted on the ground. So, you said it, 'looks kinda scary' which means it looks scary to you; You made no mention of the girls thinking it was scary, so in fact, you're a scaredy cat. LOL... This one is too good.
Oh, and Dave said he 'thinks' that the ladder is for stabilization, but the one I have is made for climbing into and out of the rooftop tent. As his is, but he had custom plated flooring put in so he could exit the tent out the back (pretty freakin' cool, but I haven't done that...yet...maybe...), if you don't do that, there's no way to exit the tent from the back... HENCE, you have to use the front ladder. There's plenty of room to fit in the front of mine, and I'm not a small dude... To each his own.

Yes, you're right, I may be an amsoil bitch, but at least I'm not a scared bitch.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/images/smilies/smokin.gif

This is almost like the PBB... !! Don't worry Art, it'll be ok...

Nicholas

[scoloco]

So we have pple that use
1. orange prestone
2. purple amsoil
3. green zerex
4. green stuff
I guess I'll go down to the local shop and start reading some labels, green or orange.

And if I may request Art and Nic go flame each other on non coolant topics on another thread? Thankyou.

[artm]

Well, I guess I'll take the bait again and reply to your rantings - you silver-tongued ad agency guy you...

1. I recall a time before the Internet where many of us uninformed were enlightened many a time by TV commercials. Yes, back then it was "almost gospel", thanks to you ad agency guys. I also recall a time when "Hot Rod" was gospel to many a young car enthusiast. I admit, I was once such an enthusiast and succumbed to its teachings. Perhaps some of those were marred by the whims of ad agency guys like you but no need to accuse anyone now. For the most part it really was gospel, Nicky...really.

I will not get into another Amsoil debate. I will say that anyone who thinks all of their products are gospel is not entirely correct. I don't have to waste money to try Amsoil. I wasted money trying Mobil 1. Now I'm back to dino for practical reasons. Practical in that it does the job and without leaks. No need to fall for the latest and "greatest" any more. I bet I can stick Mobil 1 or even a synthetic blend (heaven forbid!) in your motor and you won't know the difference. You live in Florida, even dino warms up nicely to make your motor smooth running! I have noticed smoother startup in the coldest days here with Mobil 1. But the tradeoff is less "stick" by synthetics in general so, to me, that's a problem.

2. I won't get into the tent crap. If you didn't get my meaning then too bad.

I hope my retort has been nominal enough for you. And, by the way, I did throw in a smiley face there - that means this is lighthearted, where applicable.

Bitch. :)

Follow-up Post:

So we have pple that use
1. orange prestone
2. purple amsoil
3. green zerex
4. green stuff
I guess I'll go down to the local shop and start reading some labels, green or orange.



Scott,

Are you really going to get your answer off the labels? I doubt it. Well before the time of non-green coolant there were plenty of aluminum radiators and heads all around us. What do you think they used? That's right, the green stuff.

From my Corvette club days I can tell you that everyone used Zerex (almost everyone, OK). And we're talking a few guys using it in their driven 396, LT1 and 427 'Vettes of the '60's. That's driven - not stored. All of these were aluminum radiators and some heads.

Green's where it's at. Don't fall for the Dark Side. :)

[Mike Hippert]

Alright now I'm pissed I had a reply all typed out and it somehow got F-ed up and is gone! So here it goes again.

I'm with Art, go green. You need to change the coolant yearly no matter what in a Rover. The coolant gets contaminated with other stuff and isn't able to do it's job or protect the engine as well. I don't care how well you say your pudding is, once someone spills dirt in it it tastes like crap and no one wants it! Same goes for coolant, if it gets dirt, oil, exhaust gases or whatever in it it don't work as well. That's why you need to change it once a year. Rover engines don't seal as well as newer engine, don't believe me? How many head gaskets have you seen on a rover go bad? Exactly, tons!

As far as Orange vs Green, I have heard that one talked to death before, i think on pirate or Rovers North, the conclusion was if it came with green from the factory, then put green in it, if it came with orange, then put orange in it!

OH and As Scott said, NO hijacking to flame each other. If you don't have some real world proof that what you use works better then you don't have much to say. Not to pick sides but, the way I see it is if you have been using it for 30 years then you have some proof that it works, and if you are the Ad Agency guy saying don't listen to the Ad Agency guys then you are basically saying don't listen to me?

[souza]

I hate to add fuel to the fire, but isn't Rover green *different*? I don't mean just more expensive at dealer prices either :). I have heard folks, supposedly in the know, claim that what killed the 215 buick engine for the US market back in the 50s was that it required special antifreeze that was very expensive at the time. People didn't use it, and they had engine trouble, gave the motor a bad name. (So sell it to the British!) Aluminum radiators and heads are common, but not so much aluminum blocks, especially back then. Silicates are baaaad for Rover V8s. Has no one else heard this stuff?

I haven't checked the FAQ in a while (and too lazy to do it now), but I thought this special green was discussed there somewhere? (where the heck did I get it then?) In any case, I by the pre-mixed 'green' from Honda. I am under the impression this is not the same green Prestone (Zerex?) available at autozone, and very well suited for all aluminum engines. I could be wasting my money (wouldn't be the first time)...

[DaveHuny]

"Use an ethylene glycol based anti-freeze (containing no methanol) with non-phosphate corrosion inhibitors suitable for use in aluminium [sic - and I know it's British] engines to ensure the protection of the cooling system against frost and corrosion in all seasons. Use one part anti-freeze to one part water for protection down to -36°C (-33°F) ..."

From section 9 of the workshop manual.

"At two year intervals or at the onset of the second winter, the cooling system should be drained, flushed and refilled with the required water and anti-freeze solution"

From section 10.

[norros]

This is too good...
All I'm saying is that it's 2005, and what worked then or even what was written then, may not be true to this day. Think about it.
It gets pretty hot down here and all I know is that this stuff works, and on top of that it is environmentally friendly, meaning it won't kill dogs & cats. Ever had a dog die from drinking coolant ? It's not a pretty sight.
And we're not talking about whether green or orange is 'ok' for aluminum engines, it is... It's just that Amsoil is better. I'm not just saying it's better, it's CHEMICALLY better. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you of that... Amsoil is the oldest synthetic manufacturer anywhere. (I do get $$ everytime I mention Amsoil...)
:)

Yes, I work at an Advertising Agency, but I don't do advertising... ;) I'm a computer web master, so it makes no difference what is on the billboards, on tv, magazines, etc... So, take some time before you buy... whoever it is... go to GOOGLE.com and do a search on coolants, and see what the REAL EXPERTS say. But 'some' may know better right ?

I mean really, maybe an extra $25 a year... doesn't seem like much to me.

Cheers,

Nicholas

[souza]

I think the non-phosphate part is was makes it a little more difficult to find. I believe most older green antifreeze used in american cars actually called for phosphate corrosion inhibitors. I know most green found in autoparts stores has Silicates. Which apparently in the manual isn't a problem, but I thought wasn't good. I'd be curious about the non-phosphate of the 'normal' green. Honda coolant has neither phosphate nor silicates, so I feel good about it.

Also, distilled water should be used when mixing, not water from the tap. (the pre-mixed stuff is like de-ionized or some crap...?)

Just found this on Prestone's site:


Q: Does Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant contain phosphates?
A: Some European automobile manufacturers request that a phosphate-free antifreeze be used in their vehicles. This issue is related to the extremely high mineral content of the water in Europe. If you were to mix an antifreeze that contained phosphates with the type of water they have in Europe, it may produce deposits that can settle in the cooling system and promote corrosion. However, in North America we do not have this type of water problem. Typical North American coolants have contained phosphates (which is part of the corrosion inhibitor package) for many years. Therefore, the question of phosphates is a non-issue here in North America. Prestone® Antifreeze/Coolant is completely safe for use in both foreign and domestic vehicles. For those consumers who would feel more comfortable using a phosphate-free antifreeze, our Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant is phosphate, silicate, and borate free. This coolant uses a special chemistry and technology that extends the life of the corrosion inhibitor package so that it lasts for five years or 150,000 miles (whichever comes first), and is safe for all cars and light trucks (old or new). Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant has been approved by General Motors under their DEX-COOL® specifications and is compatible with other DEX-COOL® approved coolants.


That Extended life 5/150 is the orange stuff which I don't want to run.... but according to this I guess the argument is really moot if distilled water is used to mix with the green you buy anywhere. I feel more educated now :)

[DaveHuny]

Oh boy, dare I say this...

OK, I run Amsoil fluids for the most part. It's fine to use the "environmentally friendly" argument for the unused fluid you store in your garage, or accidentally spill on the floor, but once it runs through the engine, it gets contaminated just like normal anti-freeze. It will NOT be safe for drinking at this point. You must follow the same disposal procedures for both kinds of anti-freeze. It's advantages from an environmental standpoint primarily apply before it is used.

And my background is an undergraduate degree in Chemical Engineering and I used to live in one of the most tree-hugging hippie areas in the west. ;)

[Rod Hayward]

Just so there are no tragic misunderstandings....
The "environmentally friendly" stuff will still do a fine job of croaking-off your pet. Its main advantage is that it doesn't taste sweet like the green stuff, so your pet is less likely to taste it.

And my background is I sleep with a veterinarian.... and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! :grin

[norros]

Just so there are no tragic misunderstandings....
The "environmentally friendly" stuff will still do a fine job of croaking-off your pet. Its main advantage is that it doesn't taste sweet like the green stuff, so your pet is less likely to taste it.

And my background is I sleep with a veterinarian.... and I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! :grin


Hey.. We came up with that Holiday Inn Express line... We do ICHotelsGroup (the mother ship...lol)

Yeah, I've slept with a veterinarian myself...haha... and actually a member of the humane society in Tallahassee, we rescue 'old dogs'... like myself. :)

OH... From the Web:

"...And unlike conventional ethylene glycol based products, which are highly toxic and even fatal, AMSOIL Antifreeze & Coolant is formulated with propylene glycol. It is biodegradable and requires no special disposal costs or procedures in most areas. Above all, its low toxicity presents no threat to children, pets or wildlife..."



That's it, I'm done on this topic. Have fun !


Nicholas Orros

[artm]

Jeez, is this thread still going on? :)

I believe in the "good enough" principle. That means using a product appropriate to a specific application for which it is meant. That does not mean using a minimally acceptable such product. It also does not mean using one overpriced and overspeced for the application.

Let me explain: I used to be a audio nut, of course thinking that I should search for products with the lowest distortion numbers, best specs, etc. before actually doing a listening test. Usually such a test would come after the purchase! Then I was enlightened by Dr. Bose himself in one of my classes. Distortion specs below a certain number are meaningless IN THIS APPLICATION. The application: human listening. Of course, if our target customer was a dog or cat or owl then I am sure these specs are meaningful.

So, my days of visiting Tech-HiFi (anyone remember?) pretty much came to an end and I moved on to lesser known manufacturers and better products. Lesser known to me since those ad guys always pushed Technics, Sony, Panasonic, Hitachi, Onkyo, etc.. Not to say that all of these are bad products - certainly not. But the time came to look beyond the specs.

My point is that the good-ole green stuff (yes, plain old Zerex) was the correct application for Corvettes and/or Camaros with aluminum blocks, heads, intakes. Not Prestone, as per the independent tests. Again, not a minimally accepted solution. In the case of the ZL1 Camaros (al block) these were extremely collectable and the wrong coolant would be catastrophic.

From what I recall the coolant problems with the 215 were using the wrong coolant - alcohol-based. I new two guys with this motor in TR6/MB applications. Again, Zerex and they were driven hard. Another problem was with copper in the radiators reacting with aluminum. I don't have first hand knowledge of this as everyone ran aluminum radiators.

As far as phosphates, silicates, etc. it is a matter of practicality. We now have phosphate-free to save those fools using tap water instead of pure. Frankly, I've always used tap water and never had a problem. We also have 5/150 stuff. Well, again in our application, it is folly to rely on that. For me, it is folly in any application. Is it such a pain to change coolant yearly for God's sake?!

So, we have the green stuff that's "just fine" and the rest which is overkill, never mind overpriced. If we are to adhere to our application requirements - and change it yearly - then there is no benefit to non-green except a false one.

If you think your motor is instantly running much cooler (1/3 vs 1/2) because of Amsoil, well, what can I say - except get a real gauge and then we'll see. But you did then say it reaches 1/2 frequently so hmmm...I say throw in some Water Wetter and you're done - much cheaper but unnecessary.

As for the environmental aspect well, I don't make that my first priority. I don't keep the stuff out and I recycle - what more do you want?

Enough rambling. If you think anything less than 1% THD is meaningful then go for the overpriced orange or pink or yellow. Enlightenment may come your way one day and it will be free. Until then you may live in your own little, overpriced, fantasy world.

[rover4x4]

bump with summer knocking on the door.

[cellulararrest]

Yes. Time for a flush here. I noticed it running a bit warm on the highway.

[evilfij]

Normal green stuff for me (which is now universal use).

[specops1526]

This is being (and has been many times) discussed over on DiscoWeb:

http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58758

[Stmpede]

I put the BMW Blue stuff in everything I own. I've used them all, and its the only one I like. I believe it is the same LR G48 coolant that you buy at the dealer for the 03-05 RR, only when you buy it in the BMW bottle it costs about half!

Anyway, I was having some problems in an old e30 I had where the temp would creep up in traffic on really hot days, esp. with the AC on. So I flushed everything and replaced with the new (at the time) BMW stuff, and from then on the temp gauge always read a little left of center (about 1/8"), and only got up to half on a particularly hot day in traffic. When it was time to replace the stuff in my Jeep I used it again. It has also consistently run slightly cooler than before, and has never moved from its new spot since despite the torture I have put it through ie. heavy trailers in high heat in the mountains

I have always suspected that this stuff must have something like water wetter already in it, but I have absolutely no proof of that! Without a doubt it has lowered the normal temp in both vehicles that I have put it in. I intend to put it in the 110 as well, but I have no baseline for the old coolant in it (or the gauge for that matter).

[evilfij]

Andrew, did you do the 110 gauge update from the ECR website? I have a temp gauge out of a 95 D90 and am thinking about doing it, but I want to confirm what sender I need.

[Stmpede]

I did do it, and from the little I have run it, it seems to be fine without swapping the sensor. I will of course check it out, but the sensor wasn't a priority as the truck only moves back and forth across the street right now anyway.

[evilfij]

I did do it, and from the little I have run it, it seems to be fine without swapping the sensor. I will of course check it out, but the sensor wasn't a priority as the truck only moves back and forth across the street right now anyway.

At least yours moves. Mine is in two states. :cool:

[Stmpede]

Only two? Ron, I expect you to have your rovers far more widespread than that! Honestly, I haven't touched it in weeks. Time has been a problem, plus I just added a new "toy" to the arsenal...

(pics to follow next time it's nice out)

[evilfij]

I have been consolidating my parts to one location (my parents are sick of my having things in the garage and family hanger--which I keep offering to buy).

[rover4x4]

Why not put a real gauge in?