Hi - I'm a Wrangler guy who can't get a Defender out of my mind!

[Skobie]

Hi everyone!

I've owned two Wranglers in my last 10 years, most recently a 2003 Rubicon. I sold it for silly reasons so now I plan on getting a trail ready vehicle again. I need to wheel. Another Rubicon is my logical 1st choice, but I can't get Defenders out of my mind.

I keep lurking on LR boards, buying LR magazines, and fantasy shopping for Defenders on the internet. The practical side of me says Jeep - there must be a reason for the lot of them - cheap price, cheap maintenance, cheap and plentiful mods, good brotherhood.

Still, I can't get Defenders out of my mind.

There must be some of you that have either considered a SWB Jeep or owned one. My questions to you are these:

1) What made you choose the Defender?
2) What have you learned about the comparison since you've owned your Defender?

Thanks!
Skobie

[PT94D90]

Still, I can't get Defenders out of my mind.


This should tell you all you need to know.

[1of40]

i second that. also, the key for me is d90's bring a certain challenge. in the jeep market i suspect 90% of everything being done has been done before. with the defender we're little closer to just figuring it all out for the first time.

[cbass]

I think that what Clay said is one of the reasons that they are appealing to me. Plus, I'm a vain guy... they just look better to me and I can't get them out of my mind either, lol.

[scoloco]

1) What made you choose the Defender?
2) What have you learned about the comparison since you've owned your Defender?

1. just coz.
2. things are much easier on a jeep. and cheaper. personally I think the 40 motor is better too. jeep was more civilized (I didnt get wet when it rained, it was plenty warm in winter etc. even with a softtop). doors come off in <1min (most of that time is spent getting across to the other door). new car smell if you want. not as much concern for rust/corrosion.

[Hans]

Well, I had always wanted a Land Rover, ever since when I was a kid and a friend's father always drove us around in a Series IIa he had. When the Defenders hit the US, it was a no brainer.

Now, after spending a lot of time under Jeeps and my Defender I have made the following conclusions.

1. The Defender frame is just massively huge compared to ANY Jeep frame I've ever seen. Same with the brakes. It's just made a lot stronger in almost every regard.

2. Jeeps rust too damned fast.

3. Jeeps have more accessories available, and parts are cheaper and easier to get.

4. Defenders can't change tops like a Jeep can.

5. More power potential in the Defender engine, Better milage potential in the Jeep.

6. Suspensions are fairly equal, but the Wrangler can come with Factory lockers.

I really so no real winner in a comparison, both kick ass and both have their strengths and weaknesses. I like them both so much that I park the D-90 next to the CJ-7.

-Hans

[AggieD90]

I never considered a Jeep but plenty of my runnin' buddies have them and the first thing I noticed was how much more interior space the 90 had over a SWB Jeep....which was important to me carrying everything around with me (no garage) and a big dog.

[dameek]

Besides my 95 D90 I also have a 95 Wrangler. I love my 90 and my wife loves the Wrangler because it is easier for her to drive. I have ARB's, 4" Warn suspension and other mods in the Wrangler, but the D90 does all what the Wranlger can do and all I have done to the 90 is remove the sway bars, 33" tires, and OEM suspension. I have taken both on the trails here in Washington state that are rated 8 and above and they both do very well.
Parts on my 90 don't wear out as fast as they do on the Jeep. In the end, they both do very well for what they were built for but I love my 90. I bought both new in 95 and the 90 will remain with me till I'm pushing up roses.

[Buckon37s]

To accurately answer your questions, we have to know what you mean by "trail ready". If the idea is to buy a truck, put on a 4in lift and 35's like everybody else on the planet, then the Jeep is a much better choice for you. With the rover drivetrain, you have to do major upgrades just to sometimes break with those tires (assuming you wheel semi hard). And even then, you are stuck with the small CV's that no matter what you do, will not be as strong as a set of chromos and CTM's in your front 44.

Buy the Defender if you want something that is truely unique, but you will have to do more to and overcome more hurdles. They are great trucks but pound for pound, a stock one will lose to a stock Rubicon. However, you lock up a stock one and it will kill a stock Rubicon.

I guess this is the bottom line: if you have a wife, get the Jeep. If you want women throwing thier panties at you, get the Defender.

[JohnK]

I have a friend with a Rubicon Unlimited. It has lockers and 4.11 gears; but, it does not have the clearance of a Defender. The stock suspension components do not seem as heavy duty as the Defender. I saw my friend bend up a radius arm on a Rubi.

[Skobie]

Hi again, everyone. Very thoughtful replies so far - I appreciate the balanced feedback.

The last response made me chuckle:

I guess this is the bottom line: if you have a wife, get the Jeep. If you want women throwing thier panties at you, get the Defender.
What about if I have a wife AND I want the panties, too? ;-)

[amasaback]

For what is worth we have struggled with this trade off for years. We have gone back and forth between Jeeps and Defenders. When we did not have one we always talked about how much we missed it and when we do have one the always envy the day to day civility and economy of a Wrangler. Recently we just sold my wife's 2002 Wrangler to get her a 97 Defender 90 and she loves it all over again.....though the new LWB Rubicon at the recently disccounted prices have been very tempting recently.

Ultimately it is not a rational purchase and you have to have a sense of humor to own a Defender (really any Land Rover). It is still the only car I have ever bought new that leaked oil the day I brought it home.

[TDI Guy]

If you want women throwing thier panties at you, get the Defender.

lol That is True.... :)

[kolvedic]

k, I was in your shoes and just got my D90 2 weeks ago (95 #339). I had also kept my 98 wrangler with 3" lift, 33" tires, tera low kit blah blah blah. I just sold my jeep. There is no substitute for my D90. I have always wanted one and I finally have it. It handles much better than my jeep ever did and although I have not off-roaded with it yet, I am sure it will handle there just as well. I have been a jeep guy forever, but always admired the D90's. I guess now I know the secret.:)

Bill
"Whats that in the driveway? It's a 1995 Defender 90! The car I have always wanted. I rule!"

[Buckon37s]

Hi again, everyone. Very thoughtful replies so far - I appreciate the balanced feedback.

The last response made me chuckle:


What about if I have a wife AND I want the panties, too? ;-)


Actually,

I just thought of this. THIS is why you buy a Defender. This was a few weeks ago. I do not know this chick, I had never met me her before, and she is most definently NOT my wife. Yet, she jumped in my truck before I even talked to her, and it is not because of my mug..... the power of the D.

btw: These were taken before the panty's hit my window.

edit: I forgot to mention, I kicked her out promtly.

[NashvilleRedD90]

That cage is freaking bad ass.

But on topic I had a 92 wrangler and a 94 cherokee and now I don't have either of them. I now have rovers and I will never buy another jeep. I replaced the Cherokee in 2000 when I got my first rover new (my D2) and got rid of that pile of crap. Later that year I got my second rover used (the D90) to replaces the other pile of crap that they seem to call a wrangler. Then came along the RR and its a pretty big pile of crap but not as big as the jeeps.:)

The D90 is way quieter then the wrangler, since the top is on much tighter and keeps the elements out better. The heat and AC work better, there is more room, more clearance, and has a much better ride. In my opinion there is no comparison.

[DiscoDino]

I like the balanced feedback...

My reason for going for the D90 ST I have is that damned magazine front cover back in March 2004 with an AA yellow NAS 90 on the front cover...I almost stumbled running to the bathroom for some good reading time and manure donations! That was it...both my brother and I agreed that we needed one...

After living in the Arabian desert for 3 years, Wranglers are heiled as the kings of the dunes, no questions asked and the Rubicon did not help...unfortunately, the Rubicon is not sold here, only a cheap sticker rip off...after going to the LR dealer, I saw the D90 ST and learnt it was a limited edition 2002 TD5...SOLD :)

I HATE the Defender when it comes to a LOT of stuff, but I LOVE it in every single way possible...and the Wrangler can never enjoy my rear in one of its seats..."its just not me..."...

The frames are beefier, the brakes are better, the axles can be made MUCH stronger, you can fit 33s without a lift, and panties do indeed fly your way...but when you hit the dunes (only the dunes), you will get whipped by a wrangler...on road, it will leak, howl & be windy, but you will have a smile on your face...

[prossett]

I'm in the dune desert with Disco Dino, and I run a beautiful 93 Wrangler - my pride and joy, but I too feel the Defender attraction: what a great chunk of steel! Never owned one (yet) but here are my impressions:

Solid and heavy - tough as old boots and happy to bounce off any obstacle you throw in its track; Wrangler on the other hand is solid because it is light.

Powerful engine, deep throaty roar and torque to boot; Wrangler on the other hand more lively, and higher strung - but very reliable and easy to maintain.

Good Indiana Jones adventure look - quiet machoism, and underlying self-confidence, unique, non-conformist - beautiful roll cage; Wrangler on the other hand has (everything IMHO of course) a more fun look - drive down the beach with girls standing up in the back, both vehicles rich with tradition. The Wrangler unfortunately also has quite a following of idiots burning doughnuts in parking lots...

Performance-wise, the Defender seems to stop at nothing, except mechanical hiccups which require a fair amount of fiddling and personal involvement; but the Wrangler has awesome power to weight ratio, sure-footed and agile.

As for the panties factor, I think both machines rate highly!

Specifically for sand dunes, Wranglers give that dune-buggy feel, with effortless acceleration and weight that skims along the surface. However, on a longer more serious desert expedition, where covering distance is the game instead of playing surfing on dunes, then the Defender, in the hands of someone who can trail-fix, has the upper hand.

Hmmm... both would be ideal!

[Tezab_42]

Hi everyone!

I keep lurking on LR boards, buying LR magazines, and fantasy shopping for Defenders on the internet. The practical side of me says Jeep - there must be a reason for the lot of them - cheap price, cheap maintenance, cheap and plentiful mods, good brotherhood.

Still, I can't get Defenders out of my mind.

Thanks!
Skobie

in all honesty mate... you need a land rover!

[Rover- Girl]

Jeeps are to domesticated... every dude and his brother ownes one !!
I had counted jeeps ( not sheeps ) going to work one day, and it made
me sick just how many of them are out there...
I consider myself a bit more unique and wanted something other than your
Cookie Cutter 4x4 !!!!!!!!!!
Defenders are no nonesence work vehicles... no carpet, no leather seats
no tilt sterring, you may have a working radio in it if your lucky.
Makes you wonder why they the first vehicle of choice in Africas
rugget terrain, doesnt it !!
Get a Defender !
Greetings
Christine;)

[Matt Taylor]

70% of all Land Rovers ever sold are still driving around today. What does that tell you?

It tells me that people fall in love with these things and don't want to get rid of them. If they do, there's always a schmuck like me who will buy it and keep it running.

Just get one and find out. There will always be a wrangler to buy somewhere if you don't like the defender, and there will always be somebody to buy the defender.

Just do it!

[jabber]

no leather seats


Actually, I have leather seats in mine!!! And it came like that from the factory! ;)

But seriously... BUY A DEFENDER. You'll always love it more than you hate it. Just think, then you wouldn't have to lust after one!

cheers,
jabber

[michael15]

Skobie:

I have had mine for a year now and still just beam with pride (or is it arrogance - I hope not) about it.

Defenders are the coolest trucks on the road. PERIOD!

I see Jeep owners jaws drop as they drive by. Nuf Said!

It is more expensive (although resale is higher too) but never let money stand in the way of a bad ass 90.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

Mike
St. Louis

[scoloco]

I'll add that if finances are a potential issue (it is more expensive to get and more expensive to keep running), or you rely on this thing to get to work everyday, you may want to consider the jeep.

[Ragland]

The aspect of ownership everyone has touched upon is the unique experience one has in owning a Defender. The rock climbers have pointed out some weaknesses, but outside of these conditions, a Defender is rather durable. Having owned both, the biggest difference I continually feel remains the level to which most parts were designed and built. And not to sound obnoxious, but hardly a day goes by without an appreciative comment or friendly question.

Sure there are some quirks, like engines running hot or having occassional stall issues. But by and large, the pieces used in putting together a Defender are simply larger, heavier, or stronger than those used on a Jeep. Much of this can be attributed to the fact Land Rover sells so many Defenders to the commercial and military markets. Jeeps are made for recreational civilian use. Once the M38A1 went out of production, its civilian counterpart, the CJ-5, was never the same. The Defender will no doubt suffer the same fate if it no longer serves a commercial function.

That said, the new Rubicon Unlimited is a nice truck, and one I'd consider owning myself. But, I'd never buy it as a replacement for the Defender, only as a fun daily driver that doesn't need a week for parts to arrive when in for service. The gas savings alone would cover the first $100 of any monthly note. Life is fun when choosing between a Rubicon and a Defender. I feel for those unfortunate souls struggling between the Expedition and the Suburban because the new carpool group has more kids.

[Skobie]

I'm so glad that I started this thread. It seems that there are some love/hate emotions around owning a Defender. I can feel the love for the durability, out of the box readiness, and unique nature; what do you hate?

[Buckon37s]

Clowns and illegal immigration.

[dmarchand]

Panties getting sucked into my snorkel.

[Joe P]

Strippers over the age of 35

[Mike Hippert]

Beng pulled over for DWI because the my Defender "drifts" back and forth and I didn't even have anything to drink!

Paying $2.60 for 93 octane gas and only getting 13 mpg.

Having to fill the tank every 150 miles because it only holds 15 gallons.

Having to explain to people that Land Rover makes it and no they are not made by Toyota!

Having to put the doors back on in the winter.

Cleaning up the oil stains in the driveway.

Explaining to EVERYONE that no my right backup light isn't out, it just doesn't have one!

[Hans]

Turning radius of the Titanic.... and just as water tight.

[Mike Hippert]

Turning radius of the Titanic.... and just as water tight.

You need to adjust you steering stops in or get some rims with a better offset because mine turns pretty good!

[cbass]

going to the insurance man and having him search for hours to find a "Defender 90" on his lists then giving up and listing it under "Other." Funniest part is every once in a while while he was looking he would sneak back and scroll through the models of Toyota AGAIN cause he thought he just must have missed it somehow.

[scoloco]

leaks like a sieve. hot in summer. cold in winter. wife wont join me on road trips in it.
Mike, no way in hell my defender will ever have the turning radius my TJ had.

[flippedrover]

Gigantic money pit on wheels!!

[DiscoDino]

I REALLY hate where the hand brake is and how hot it gets, my right leg is void of any hair and there is a crevass there where it lays on the hand brake lever...

[stevewhitaker]

Actually, the thing I hate most is the lack of good dealer/mechanic support. You really have to learn to fend for yourself (with the help of sites like this one). There are isolated good mechanics around, but you have to search for them and be lucky enough to be close to one. Land Rover makes a great truck (both Series and Defender), arguably the best stock 4x4 available, but they have orphaned us twice here in the states (1974 and 1998). We used to comment on our expeditions that a Jeep will go just about anywhere a Land Rover can go, but just not as many times.

[rustydefender]

Actually, the thing I hate most is the lack of good dealer/mechanic support. You really have to learn to fend for yourself (with the help of sites like this one). There are isolated good mechanics around, but you have to search for them and be lucky enough to be close to one. Land Rover makes a great truck (both Series and Defender), arguably the best stock 4x4 available, but they have orphaned us twice here in the states (1974 and 1998). We used to comment on our expeditions that a Jeep will go just about anywhere a Land Rover can go, but just not as many times.
I got very lucky my city's lr dealer merged into a jaguar dealer and the rover mechanic quit and started his own shop. He is nuts for rovers and a damn good mechanic too he charges about the same rates as the guy who works on my jeep.If you can live without open top wheeling try to find a hard top defender they don't have the heat/ cold problems they don't leak and there is easier rear seat and cargo access. The only real mechanical trouble I have had on my 80,000 mile defender was an ignition cylinder failure which cost me about 500 bucks and one day. Thats it! I should probably knock on wood now.

[loved90]

I have owned three jeeps, 89,94,02, and I just bought my first d90 2 weeks ago. Things I have noticed so far are that the d90 is more quiet and the air conditioner kicks a jeeps ass, which is important for a hot sweaty guy in the south. My wife hated all the jeeps, but she throws her panties at the d-90. D-90 rides better also. Jeep advant. is cheap maintenance and lots of add ons. For me, the d90 is just so much cooler, everybody can get a jeep, not everbody can have a d90.

[chris snell]

I've owned two Wranglers in my last 10 years, most recently a 2003 Rubicon. I sold it for silly reasons so now I plan on getting a trail ready vehicle again. I need to wheel. Another Rubicon is my logical 1st choice, but I can't get Defenders out of my mind.
I, too, am a former Wrangler owner. Tomorrow, I pick up my 1994 D-90 for the first time! Why a D-90? Several reasons:

1) Let's face it, if I wanted a practical vehicle, I'd buy a Honda Accord. The Jeep is not a practical vehicle, either. My old 2001 Wrangler Sport (w/ 4" Pro Comp lift) was slow on the highway, had no storage space, and was a gas hog in its own right. The D-90 is a little faster, has little storage space and is a huge gas hog but has one "practical" advantage over the Jeep option: resale value. When I sold my mostly cherry Jeep, 9 months later with few miles, I took a $7000 hit. The market here in San Antonio is flooded with 2 year old TJs but D-90s are very rare and the price never seems to go down.

2) As I see it, you buy a Land Rover because you truly love Land Rovers and all that goes along with them. You love their uniqueness, their features, their quirks, and you are willing to pay the price to have one. My choice of a Rover is a lot like my choice in computers. I am an Apple user because I love the way their operating system runs, the looks of their sexy aluminum cases and even though I can get a functional PC for thousands of dollars less, I wouldn't trade my Macs for anything. I think that if you feel the same way about a Defender, then this is the vehicle for you.

Best of luck in your purchase!

Chris
Soon-to-be happy new D-90 owner

[Skobie]

My choice of a Rover is a lot like my choice in computers. I am an Apple user because I love the way their operating system runs, the looks of their sexy aluminum cases and even though I can get a functional PC for thousands of dollars less, I wouldn't trade my Macs for anything. I think that if you feel the same way about a Defender, then this is the vehicle for you.
Hmmm...interesting. I do have Macs at home (even though I "Know" PCs more from work) and love them. Good analogy.

Great discussion, guys. Thanks for the honest opinions. I think the only way of knowing for sure is to buy one! (thumbs up!)

[Chris Vitale]

The best quote I have read is "I own a D-90 because I get the jeep thing"

Prior to owning my D-90, I have never worked on an engine in my life. Now, if that statment turns you off, turn around, run and NEVER look back.

I am not saying that I enjoy my truck breaking down, however, I have enjoyed learning from members on this site to appropriately diagnose and fix my D-90 without having to pay a mechanic to do the work for me. No offense

If you like to own unique toys and enjoy projects from time to time, buy a D-90.

Ps. I didn't buy a D-90 for resale value...because I never intended to sell...

[little black duck]

If you like to own unique toys and enjoy projects from time to time, buy a D-90.

Ps. I didn't buy a D-90 for resale value...because I never intended to sell...This one I agree with, I have a Defender 90 in the laand down under, I have had this one for a year and plan on having it for many years.

I had a look at the Wranglers at the time when I purchased my D-90 but the Wrangler couldn't do what I wanted (Recreational 4x4ing and towing a 2 ton trailer)

The Defenders seem to hold there value better than most other models down here and there must be a few good reasons for that.

Take one for a drive on the road, If you can cope with how it is on the highway you will love it of road.

Mine is a Td5 and so I can get 450+km out of a tank and the only time it struggles is on very soft sand.

Michael

[Seriesman]

I have a 1998 Wrangler TJ soft top and a 1997 D-90 SW. Both are similarly equiped (lift kit, 33 inch tires, dual air lockers, winch, etc.). Based on my side-by-side daily experience with each I would add the following comments to what has been noted thus far:

1. Be carefull of any comparisions between the D-90 and other "Jeep Wranglers." In 1997 the Wrangler (thereafter designated the Wrangler "TJ") was completely and totally revamped with a new frame, coil suspension, and so many more things the list is too long to write about here. The bottom line is that it is far superior in almost every respect to the pre-1997 Wrangler (called the "JY"). I had a 1994 YJ Wrangler and it had all of the problems noted above--bad ride, poor air conditioner, loose noisy leaky top, poor axle articulation, etc.). However, the 1998 TJ is a 100 % different vehicle. I guess what I am saying is that, since you are considering buying a new Wrangler, any comparision to a pre-1997 model (especially an old CJ) is irrelevant.

2. In my experience the 1997 and newer Wranglers have far better air conditioners, heaters, and the soft tops are much easier to use and quieter, especially if you get a post 2000 model with the new Sailcloth style top.

3. Do not be fooled into believing all the hype about how "massive" the D-90 frame is in comparision to the TJ. In fact the D-90 frame is larger, but this is offset by the fact that it is only made of 14 guage steel (1.9 mm) In contrast, the TJ frame is made of 3/16 steel (4.8 mm), over twice the thickness of the metal used on the D-90 frame. In addition, the NAS D-90 frames were never painted properly on the inside, and barely painted on the outside. As a result they rust much faster than a comparable TJ frame. I have considerable welding experience on both types of frames and can tell you without reservation that there is no comparision in this regard with respect to longevity. Just look at the photos all over the net of Bill Burke's D-90 near the transfer case--it is completely caved in from hitting rocks. This is the REAL reason they sell "frame sliders" for D-90's. I have bashed my TJ frame into the worst rocks imaginable (Johnson Valley, Rubicon, Moab, etc.) and I have yet to put anything more than a scratch in the frame. The REAL reason 70% of Land Rovers are still on the road is because idiots like me can't get enough of them and blow all of our time and money repairing rust and keeping them running.

4. D-90's will in fact have a much worse "overall" problem with rusting than a TJ. Again, comparisions to rusty old 1970's CJ's are irrelvant. The newer Jeep TJ's have zink plated bodies--that's right, the body is galvanized. Try welding on one with the wrong process and see what happens. Hold your breath though because the fumes are toxic! It is true that the D-90 body, made of aluminum, will not rust. Unfortunately, this solution is the classic example of the principal of unintended consequences--all of the contact points between the aluminum and steel will eventually suffer from the ever present galvanic corrosion problem that all of us know and love so well. This problem is far more difficult to deal with than rusty steel, which in all but the worst cases can simply be cut out and repaired by a competent weldor. In addition, D-90's have a terrible time with rust on the steel parts that do exist (check out how many posts there are on this websit regarding rusting bulkheads, frames, door trims/frames, and the corroding body contact points).

5. Buck-On 37 is 100% correct about the issues related to the strength of the front axles. There is no way in the world you can build the D-90 outer stubs to be stronger than a Dana 44 with chrome moly axles and CTM/OX U-joints.

6. In the really hard, rocky off road environments the D-90 does not, and will not, outperform a comparably equiped TJ. It simply cannot because it is so much heavier than a TJ. Obviously, a good driver can make the difference, and you can build your D-90 like Buck-On has done to overcome this issue, but based on my actual driving experience with both vehicles the D-90 gets stuck far more often. But then again, I have a SW so......perhaps not a fair comparision.

OK, after that rant I know you are all wondering why in the Hell I even have a D-90. It's simple--you all listed the many reasons/good things above so I do not need to bother. I just wanted to address several of the issues discussed above so our new friend can make an informed decison. But, as everyone has pointed out, the decision to buy a D-90 is one of the heart, not of the mind..... If you can afford one and can't get it out of your mind you owe it to yourself to get one. If you don't you will keep on wishing you had every time one drives by.